In reality, two of the four students killed at Kent State in May of 1970 were simply walking to class. James Michener wrote a wonderful book entitled simply "Kent State", where I learned their names: Sandra Shauer & William Schroeder.
You should not compare the U.S. of those days with the U.S. of today. Trump currently enjoys a 50% approval rating among American men. Most MAGA folks will never hear of Trump's many abuses of authority and illegal actions, and if they do it will be framed in a pro-Trump manner. Tens of millions of Americans actively seek out wildly biased far right media that supports their own biases. "Objective" truth or reality is no longer persuasive in America.
True. The Republican Party of the early 1970s put the Constitution first during Watergate, established the EPA, and supported reproductive rights and federalism. It considered hiring entertainers for important positions like the presidency lunacy. None of which is true today.
Correct. The GOP has finally degraded to the level of the people who celebrated the murders at Kent State, which was and continues to be a majority of white voters.
...one thought...and i'm sorry if this is a bit long...however one describes the actions of the Nat'l Guard at Kent State, it was indeed a tragedy...I'm looking at the circumstances of then vs now: untrained reserve soldiers told they're facing a dangerous threat, heat of the summer wearing gas masks, little situational awareness, no crowd control gear, rifles with lethal rounds their only tool...all those elements are present right now anywhere that these troops are called up, & all it takes is one scared or hotheaded commander to give the order to fire, as happened at Kent. God forbid that happens anywhere, yet if it does, I pray the lion's share of blame is directed at those at the top placing troops there as provocation, not the lowest ranking soldiers or the protesters, or anyone caught in a crossfire
I am not so sure of this statement. I was a freshman in 1970 at another Ohio college and I heard many white woters who thought others should have been killed.
...one thought...and i'm sorry if this is a bit long...however one describes the actions of the Nat'l Guard at Kent State, it was indeed a tragedy...I'm looking at the circumstances of then vs now: untrained reserve soldiers told they're facing a dangerous threat, heat of the summer wearing gas masks, little situational awareness, no crowd control gear, rifles with lethal rounds their only tool...all those elements are present right now anywhere that these troops are called up, & all it takes is one scared or hotheaded commander to give the order to fire, as happened at Kent. God forbid that happens anywhere, yet if it does, I pray the lion's share of blame is directed at those at the top placing troops there as provocation, not the lowest ranking soldiers or the protesters, or anyone caught in a crossfire
...one thought...and i'm sorry if this is a bit long...however one describes the actions of the Nat'l Guard at Kent State, it was indeed a tragedy...I'm looking at the circumstances of then vs now: untrained reserve soldiers told they're facing a dangerous threat, heat of the summer wearing gas masks, little situational awareness, no crowd control gear, rifles with lethal rounds their only tool...all those elements are present right now anywhere that these troops are called up, & all it takes is one scared or hotheaded commander to give the order to fire, as happened at Kent. God forbid that happens anywhere, yet if it does, I pray the lion's share of blame is directed at those at the top placing troops there as provocation, not the lowest ranking soldiers or the protesters, or anyone caught in a crossfire
Rob, spot on. It's clear that if one side is constantly generating justifications for bigotry, hatred, and anger, while the other advocates for equality and justice, those two visions are irreconcilable. Bridging such a divide requires more than just conversation; it demands a shift in fundamental perspectives and priorities.
Actually, most of the MAGA folks will hear about it. They just don't care! For them, Trump's anti-democratic actions aren't a bug, there a feature. As long as black/brown Catholic immigrants are the target, they're happy. The other stuff is just irrelevant to them.
It won't be only black/brown Catholic immigrants as the targets for long.
When they come for those who have been thinking, "I'm all right, Jack," it will be too da_____ late. Tyranny is like that, even for those who think it's just dandy. There are no allies, just serfs-in-waiting.
I don’t believe 50% of American men are pro-trump. Our country has issues but we aren’t filled with that many idiots. He will always have a core base of followers but over the last few months we’ve seen more and more former trump fans change their tune as well.
That percentage is meaningless during an election in which about 25 marginal seats in the House out of 435, and only 5 in the Senate will determine the direction of America politically and morally for the next two years!
Never heard of them. Polling is not simple, some organizations are better/more accurate than others. Also, can’t judge reaction to LA based on an old poll. That poll probably reflects the (mistaken) belief that Trump has pulled back on tariffs and prices won’t be going up after all.
I don’t know what’s more terrifying — that the majority actually supports his politics, marching us straight toward a totalitarian state… or that we’re a nation split in two, and sooner or later, that fracture will erupt. Into…let’s say…chaos.
I share your concern. Those who believe that Democrats are “against their way of life” (a successful phrase during the Iraq War) will dig in if challenged. Those standing up for democracy to continue must dig in more. All the Best-
Maybe I'm not following your point, but Nixon's approval both before and after May 4, 1970 was significantly above 50%. Also, Trump is actually underwater at about 46.6% approval in Nate Silver's polling average.
Kent State would not have been percieved as entirely partisan or reflective of the president, whereas Trump clearly owns this deployment.
This is an incredibly important point. His supporters are just wondering why the Fed police did not use real bullets. He, himself, is never in physical risk. But the military are happy to do his bidding. The protests are terrific. But he is not Lyndon Johnson. He will never step down, and the Congress will not take him down. Few are willing to hear this. But you are right. The American experiment is over.
Not quite; the actual decisive point in time will be in November, 2026 when the media report the results of the determinative House and Senate elections! That is when our Democracy is at risk or of strength! I vote for political strength, truth, honesty, respect, free speech and DEMOCRACY WRIT LARGE! Let's make it our individual commitment, each of us, to work diligently and effectively to carry both the House and the Senate by significant margins. We can do it--are you with it?
Let us run our best and our brightest and most truly, loyally patriotic, while they run their greediest, self-servingest and most nakedly traitorous. And make sure that ALL Americans see, feel, and hear the difference.
It’s why they hate science, elite schools, and love toxic masculinity where they think they are in charge, till Mom come home, and tells him to grow up, 50 is too late.
Kent State might not be a great comparison. Polling taken afterwards showed that most Americans thought the students had it coming, and barely about one tenth could actually bring themselves to blame the soldiers who committed the murders.
We've been sleepwalking into fascism for a long, long time.
Recall that we were still in the heavy fear-culture of nuclear war with Russia, so anything that was out of step with what the government was doing (Viet Nam) was seen as red-commie dangerous. College protests against the war were seen as that. So the 'mix,' if you will, is different now.
Americans fail to meet the democratic ideal of an informed electorate, and the consequences of this political ignorance are a topic of significant scholarly debate. In two independent settings, we experimentally test the effect of political information on citizens' attitudes toward the major parties in the U.S. When uninformed citizens receive political information, they systematically shift their political preferences away from the Republican Party and toward the Democrats. A lack of knowledge on the policy positions of the parties significantly hinders the ability of low-socioeconomic-status citizens to translate their preferences into partisan opinions and vote choices. As a result, American public opinion—and potentially election results and public policy as a result—is significantly different from the counterfactual world in which all voters are informed
No, it was not. Kent State--1970. Nixon's 1972 election: a 49-state win, with only MA standing for McGovern. Americans loved to see the snotty college kids get theirs. I was the same age as those murdered by the National Guard, and I thought Americans would be repelled by the murder of young people, not only at Kent State but at Jackson State (we forget the latter because, well, those were "just" Black kids). In 1972 I realized how wrong I was.
Been battling these bastards since 1963, and I guess you’ve been right there in the fight, too, Anca Vlasopolis. Too bad we’ve seen so little success and that it now has come to this, where they openly brag that cruelty is the point.
Recall that we were still in the heavy fear-culture of nuclear war with Russia, so anything that was out of step with what the government was doing (Viet Nam) was seen as red-commie dangerous. College protests against the war were seen as that. So the 'mix,' if you will, is different now.
If you put enough protestors together with enough "crowd control", somebody in one side or the other will do something stupid and somebody else will panic. They can invent the violence by the protestors later to suit their needs.
Especially when the "somebodies" are placed there to specifically smash and burn things to justify EMERGENCY MEASURES. Reichstag Fire - bringing back the classics!
Perhaps that's practical advice, but it is what it is.
For example: Ghandi was nonviolent, and is served up as a success in helping India gain independence.
But what did that "nonviolence" lead to, in fact? Ghandi's nonviolence not only helped India gain independence, but has (paradoxically) led to sectarian partition of the nation and extreme violence between Muslims and Hindus, and war between the partitionates, India and Pakistan and West and East (Bangladeshi) Pakistan.
I’m for nonviolent protests because I believe they are more effective. But I don’t believe we should tailor our actions to what provides a rationale for trump and his minions. They will find a rationale — even if we all hold hands and sing kumbaya. We can’t let them define our strategy and tactics
If you want to participate in a No Kings demonstration, there are plenty in close by Maryland and Virginia. If I lived in DC, I’d be going to the one in Bethesda, out side the Fox 5 studios. But there are many to choose from!
Don’t capitulate. Be mindful but protest where you want. They will blame us for violence whether any is committed or not (see Krugman above) so don’t let that determine where or how to protest! Size matters. Turn out.
Our locales protest dovetails with a trump birthday party rally. I think it’s safe to assume most of the MAGAts will be armed with firearms, as per their right. I hope there is a visible police presence.
Yes, like Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi. But I would like to think that if it were to come to violence the forces of democracy would be smart enough to not allow their enemy to choose the time, place and conditions for battle.
The 2024 elections gave the Prince permission to do just that. And it’s what the Trumpists are doing: choosing the time and place on a day-by-day basis in the Cold Civil War being waged here and now.
L.A.’s just the warm-up. The outcome is quite likely to be the declaration of an insurrection, based upon the projected demonstrations planned nationwide. And he’s got the Army in D.C.
They’ve lined up their funding: Cryptocurrency, to the extent it’s not Musk or Bezos or Zuckerberg or one of our other new gods/multibillionaires. The three branches are in the hands of a single person. It’s not the “future” any more.
The protest I will attend is a single-file line of people on sidewalks, sitting in chairs with signs, seven miles long, 7000 people expected. Noon until 2 p.m. Maybe some impressive video from drones overhead.
No election is perfect—we’ve known that since 2000. Despite technological and legal changes since then, it still all comes down to systems and the people who implement them. Still, the 2024 election result was in line with consistent polling since 2021, and the fact that Democrats didn’t do as badly as they might have in 2022 (They did still lose the House, it was a loss even without a “red wave”) should not have been taken as proof that they were on the right track and that Biden could be re-elected.
That is true. However, it's not a question of the usual margin of error to be found in typical elections. There have been some pretty serious statistical anomalies detected in a number of districts, especially in Pennsylvania and one upstate NY district.
As for that election in 2000, it was "won" by fewer than 400 votes, in one state where the "winner's" brother was the governor, and finally found "legit" by a hard reichwing friendly SCOTUS. In other words, it was a total sham, if not a scam. We was robbed.
The Constitution is like a patent: to circumvent it, one invents around it. I wonder if the pardon Trump issued to the insurrectionists serving him in 2020 annuls the 14th Amendment?
But to speak of “democracy” you cannot skip over “demos”—the people were not persuaded that Trump was a criminal/insurrectionist. We can speak of losing Constitutional order and the rule of law, but not “democracy” when the people are on the other side. If you think the people are unfit (because they are ignorant and bigoted) to rule, what then?
Yes to this and to everything in Krugman’s post. We have to keep in mind, unfortunately, that 77 million Americans are enjoying the hell out of Trump’s lawless actions. Those 77 million are the crux of the problem, and it’s hard to imagine any workable fix.
Welcome to the world of Alice in Wonderland. The Red Queen has decided that words can mean anything she wants them to mean. Only she has been replaced by, what shall we call him, the Orange Preen? It is perfectly OK if some Capitol “tourists” are way more violent than the “rebels“ in LA. The governor of California can become a “criminal“ without breaking any laws. Of course, then it is up to The Don’s whim whether or not you yourself could be a “criminal”. When meaning becomes this fluid then it becomes impossible to make a decision based on reason, or even common sense. Very handy for the Orange Preen’s court.
It's a stage for iron-fist militarism. I would be ZERO percent surprised if this is his official launch party for martial law and total government by decree.
“But always — do not forget this, Winston — always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — for ever.”
Not if I can help it! I do >not<, nor will I ever, love Big Brother.
It's a great reminder of the imperative that we continue to Rise! Resist! ✊✊✊
The next nationwide rally is this Saturday, June 14, yes >that< June 14, be there or be square!
Let's ruin Chump's B'day. We need 3.5% or the population, or around 12,000,000 people to be present. So bring all your friends and families. Spread the word as far and wide as possible. Let's all get out there with a Howard Beale spirit and yell "We're as mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!".
They aren't rats. Marines are Americans just like us. They've been put into an intolerable position by Trump. I hope they have the courage to refuse to shoot other Americans if it comes to that.
Trump has turned 4000 untrained weekend warriors and 500 trained killers loose on the people of Los Angeles. He made no provision to feed or house them so they are sleeping on concrete floors. That means that not only are they all on edge, now they are tired and hungry. It's only a matter of time before one or more of them snaps and empties their machine gun into a crowd. And then what? If he is not immediately impeached and removed, our democracy is lost forever. Or at least until we can turn our collective rage on elected Republicans and vote every one of them out.
I'm seeing a lot of disdain for the protests above. That is not good. It is the only legal, Constitutional avenue open to those of us who do not want to live in a Police State. I will be out there on Saturday with a lot of other protestors committed to keeping it peaceful and maybe just a little classy.
As will I. I want Trump and his MAGA thugs to see millions of us peacefully protesting him and his delusions of grandeur. He is a small, broken little man, the more of us that he sees are against him, the more it hurts his fragile ego.
I will only watch clips if something big happens, like the damn reviewing stand collapses or if they show empty stands along the route or if one of these monster tanks so damages a bridge over the Potomac that the bridge collapses.
Remember they get extremely upset when ordinary citizens rally to support marginalized people and march in support of democracy. Please keep things peaceful. No doubt the Jan. 6th folks will be out to pay for their pardons. This is our country.
We can be sure that almost every one of the troublemakers is a former J6 terrorist or some rando incel who wishes he had been there. They will be at many protests trying to incite violence. It'll suck for them if real protesters catch them before they can really act and turn them over to Trump's stormtroopers.
The NoKings.org website map shows an extraordinary array of planned protests, including ones in rural red communities. Even if those turn out to be only one or two people, they are willing to stick their necks out in hostile territory.
The protest I will attend will be a single file line of people sitting in chairs, seven miles long, 7,000 people expected. Sitting there for two hours. Finished at 2 p.m. Hard to find any violent potential in that.
I think you are missing the point of the protests. They are not meant to kick ICE out of LA - they cannot, but to put visible people behind the opposition to tRump.
And to make sure that the ICE gestapo know they are being watched and recorded...and everything can and will be used against them in a future court of law.
You need to study the history of movements for social change. Protests are an important part of that. They build community and solidarity, they show the majority that many millions of people are against what is happening, they help build confidence of people who aren't sure about things, they get the attention of lawmakers, and you know what? They piss the hell out of Trump and demoralize him. What are you proposing, from your armchair?
Peter, those weekend warriors are not untrained ... and they are residents of the the city they defend. The people on the streets are their friends, family and neighbors, on the streets and neighborhoods where they live.
We need to support them in their role to protect all from those who would escalate this to blood and chaos. We must not taunt or shame, but allow them to be the guardrail. We must remain peaceful in the face of those who taunt us. We must let higher minds and goals prevail.
We must also remind them that they must also stand against those who would give orders in conflict with their oath.
The national guard may be trained for some sorts of police work, the Marines are not. It is criminally insane to use Marines for domestic police work. They're trained to kill people and break things, not for guarding buildings. You don't need an order from the top to start chaos. All it takes is for one person, any person, to start shooting, and you can get a chain reaction with many casualties.
FWIW I'm an old Marine and this is correct. Very few Marines are trained in anything vaguely like crowd control or police actions. We are trained to fight. Deploying Marines to a US city like this is massively unfair to the Marines. And I have no doubt that if things "go wrong", Trump et al will be happy to blame the individual Marine rather than their own poor leadership.
"For might makes right; until they see the light, they've got to be protected, all their rights respected, 'til someone we like can be elected." - Tom Lehrer
They are not being deployed to protect us they are being deployed to intimidate us and to protect the masked dickless thugs that make up Trump's gestapo. So if I encounter them, I will taunt them. I will insult them. And I will ask them why they have sold their souls to Trump's police state.
Yes to your last sentence. But no to the taunting and insulting. That will get you nowhere. But an impassioned, loud speech about their ability to walk off their jobs, yes. Remember, it is an all-volunteer military. They could be charged as AWOL. But not all of them all at once.
I would like to encourage your not to do that. They are being put in a difficult place, slow walked by a series of legitimate orders to one that is not.
We must remind them of their oath and right to disobey illegitimate orders, appeal to the truth they know and their better angels.
Lead them to the higher ground over instigating anger and supporting the lie they've been told by 'leaders' who are the true insurrectionists.
Yes and no, Nixon was not attempting to militarized against US citizens ... yet we had Republicans in office with spines to oust him from office. And the Ohio called up the National Guard, not Nixon.
This time not so much. We have a spineless crew who will increasingly allow the despot to walk all over the Constitution, and a president trying to use state guard against its citizans and Governor. Hence the growing public unrest we now experience.
Anyone they murder will become a martyr. They can't keep us down forever. We will be back. Democracy will be restored - it's inevitable - we're the U.S. of A., it's in our DNA.
Maybe, but my level of confidence in that outcome is far lower than yours. I think Trump might make the mistake of adding gay people to his list of targets. The train on persecuting gay people left the station a long time ago, no matter what Hegseth thinks. Everyone now has loved ones they know are gay. Trump going that route is the only plausible ray of hope I see for breaking his stranglehold on 77 million Americans.
Oh that's coming soon enough. I mean, they've already targeted LGBTQ+ for elimination in various government entities, especially the military. Will they go as far as Schicklgruber and put them in camps along with "illegal aliens"? I doubt that, but who knows? I'm not prepared to put anything past TrumPox and his Evil Klown Kar of a misadministration.
Regardless, we'll be out there on Saturday, let's see what happens.
It's a great reminder of the imperative that we continue to Rise! Resist! ✊✊✊
The next nationwide rally is this Saturday, June 14, yes >that< June 14, be there or be square!
Let's ruin Chump's B'day. We need 3.5% or the population, or around 12,000,000 people to be present. So bring all your friends and families. Spread the word as far and wide as possible. Let's all get out there with a Howard Beale spirit and yell "We're as mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!".
12M would be a good start, but I think the 3.5% number comes from places where a significant majority of the general population was inclined to oppose the offending government. In this case, roughly half the population thinks Trump is a hero, and well over half the dominant cohort (white Americans, 60% of whom voted for the felon). So, I suspect we need lot more than 3.5% to succeed. More like 8% to 12%. Just a guess, of course.
I expect us to hit that 3.5% this Saturday, so we'll see what effect that has. We're only 140 days into this coup, and already we've had numerous demonstrations, plus the one coming up in just 4 days. We're just getting warmed up. He's actually polling below 50% approval, by a lot, depending on which poll you're looking at.
I'd say the percentage of the population who think he's a hero is closer to around 30 - 33%. Remember that 1/3 of eligible voters didn't even bother to vote at all. Maybe all this will finally wake them up.
I think large numbers in key areas ... think ports of Trade, commerce, international borders. LA county is huge, add San Francisco. New Jersey, New York, and yes my own little Detroit.
No need to bring it to the Capitol, no sign of intelligent life there.
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him... In this way you pour fiery coals on his head. Keep conquering the evil with the good." Romans 12:20, 21.
Those fiery coals are not punitive, they are an allusion to how metals were refined at the time. You may get a change of heart by treating your enemy right. In this case, showing them that you aren't their real enemy.
I wasn’t referring to Trump’s cultists, but the national guardsmen on the street, who might hesitate to shoot protesters who have shown them some kindness. I’m not near the trouble, but from the TV it appears that a few among the protesters are determined to cause a lot of noise and damage. I say “among” but it’s possible these are the “paid protesters” Trump mentions, conveniently omitting that HE is the one paying them. EVERY accusation is a confession, take that to the bank.
The NG/ICE contingent had little to do, as the LAPD did its usual number on protestors and journalists...NOBODY can bust heads, shoot "non-lethal" — LOL! — munitions, and fling flash-bangs and tear gas as well and as punitively as the Boys in Blue. They needed to polish their skills since the Rodney King trial-verdict riots, and here is the perfect opportunity. And the pathetic Mayor Karen Bass lecturing people about "violence", when "law enforcement" are kicking the shit out of her constituents...Jaysus!
Remember, Trump’s minions (the Proud Boys, for example) crave violence and will start fires, throw bricks, and instigate fights to provide Trump with fictitious rationalization for his rampant lawlessness.
One thing I hope for is that the guardsmen and marines, being so recklessly deployed, will themselves protest against being used as tools for Trump’s authoritarian appetite. We know they were sent to LA without even arrangements for a place to sleep. The National Guard has historically entered disaster areas to help the citizenry. Most Guardsmen joined and have stayed in the guard out of a sense of service to the public and, frankly for some additional income and benefits.
Only on a few deeply regrettable occasions have they been deployed against Americans. Don’t be surprised if the guardsmen and marines express growing resentment for being used.
Flashback to the summer of 1932: Chancellor Franz von Papen uses the excuse of Nazi Stormtrooper violence to take control of the state of Prussia, ending Germany's thousand-year federal tradition. Over the following two years, Hitler destroys the autonomy of the other German states.
Since this $2B - $3B for the National Guard isn't budgeted, those in the know are suggesting that there will be National Guardsmen across America working for free for much of the remaining year.
Maybe that will open a few eyes even now, if the word gets out.
I think the BBBB contains language that allows the president to use appropriations as a slush fund to spend however -- including so called "law enforcement."
With respect, Kim, I would expect little to no expression of protest from the troops. Yes, the deployment is reckless and wrong (see my other posts in this thread), but I can tell you that when I disagreed with an order (unless it was clearly an illegal order) I said "yes, sir, three bags full" and did my duty, and every serviceman and woman I know felt pretty much the same - and we had enormous trust in our superior officers to not issue an illegal order. In my entire military career I was subject to only one illegal order which I rejected and I was quickly backed up by the rest of the chain of command - I even received a commendation for disobeying that particular order. When this all goes wrong, please know that it will not be because the troops are bloodthirsty or automatons, or necessarily supporters of this President. They are just doing their duty.
With the Roberts court, it is very hard to discriminate between legal and illegal orders. Even the brass, who are well educated and generally supportive of the Constitution, will have difficulty deciding that any particular order is illegal.
As true as this is, *any non-zero amount* of violence and setting fires is something Trump can spin effectively. Mexican flags among the protests will also play well for him with the median voter. The protestors are handing Trump a free win and an easy distraction from his gutting of the economy.
It's inevitable, I agree. Protests in the internet era are leaderless, so there's no way to prevent all violence and vandalism. My point is, that means it would be better if there were no protests. But of course it's inevitable that there will be protests also. A very bad situation, with no way out that I can see. Trump will simply win on this one. That also looks inevitable.
The only way I could see this not going his way is if innocent people get killed by the feds. But even that might not be enough given that the protestors have already been made to look like the bad guys to normies.
We've already had one Australian reporter and one BBC reporter shot; one with a plastic bullet and the other with a rubber bullet. The BBC reporter had to be hospitalized. And that's by National Guardsmen. Someone will be killed within half a day of the Marines deploying.
Because the guardrails were still in place, Congress was not completely shut down as it is now and we had just elected a new administration. We have traveled light years into the Upside Down since then.
Actually, springboarding off your analogy, I think helping undocumented immigrants evade ICE is something people can do if they really want to improve the situation by defying the law. I'm afraid mass protests will hurt much more than they help right now.
And because he knows deep down that Gavin Newsom is a serious rival that would kick his ass in the next presidential election. A pissing contest to show who's boss.
If there's anything the summer of 2020 should've taught us, it's that the narrative can operate completely free of facts on the ground. We saw video after video of cops assaulting people who were doing nothing; cops grab guy in wheelchair and throw him to the ground, cops drive through a residential neighborhood and pepper-spray people who're literally just standing there on their front porch, cop lines up a journalist even as the guy is filming him and shoots him with a rubber bullet. None of it mattered. The official line, which at this point is as much ingrained through repetition as anything else, was that violent anarchists were starting things and the poor beleaguered cops were just "responding" as best they could. We had a coast-to-coast nationwide police riot in 2020, and they weren't blamed for any of it.
If they're determined to turn this violent, a lack of fires or Mexican flags isn't going to make a difference.
I've already said this previously today: Many mainstream and indie commentators see the federalisation of the Cali National Guard and deployment of Marines to LA as a warning to or foretaste of the White House response to upcoming national protests--that seems to be your take as well. My concern is that we'll soon see what took place on January 6--not a deployment of federal troops (which were, in fact, held back at that time), but a call to action to the militias and other MAGA gangs to oppose protestors, giving then an excuse to deploy actual military service members. That, in my view, would be the worst-case scenario for June 14th--and a tipping point into a fascist police state.
Interesting. Kinzinger is calling for Newsom to call up the rest of the states National Guard to keep them under CA control ... unless the despot supersedes him again.
Among other things, California is the desired destination as the biggest blue state and the place of Gavin Newsom, a principle rival if we ever hold elections again.
I'm in my early 70s and most of my acquaintances simply are just going about life as if nothing untoward has happened. We used to be a nation of voters. Now I believe we are a nation of distracted, acquiescent consumers who simply want comfort.
Almost no one seems to understand that mass mobilization is urgently needed. That safety is more likely if tens of millions take to the streets.
There will always be the frightened and the apathetic who don't deserve a democratic republic. But we need to recognize how far things have broken down. Schlessinger wrote The Imperial Presidency 50 years ago. Congress is bought and sold, uncompetitive and complaiscent. They are no longer a proud body jealous of their power. SCOTUS is largely a collection of mediocraties.
It's up to us. A screen-watching rabble obsessed with our own comfort and acquisitions.
For what it’s worth, I’m your age and I have NOT turned my attention away from this unfolding menace. I live in Northern California, the current front line of this battle. As it continues, people who are now ‘sleeping’ through the turmoil will be forced to face it when it’s practically on their doorstep. It’s how we finally react to this treachery that matters most.
I am disturbed by media who report current affairs in the US as merely a weird-but-mandated process of ‘democracy’. It so closely resembles the usurpation of democracy in 1930s Europe..
Media needs to keep the feed leaning to the peaceful side of this protest and not inflate the misbehavior of the few who take advantage of chaos to loot.
There are a lot of factors leading to this situation, but an underlying problem is that a large portion of the US is civically illiterate. It’s not just social media. Social studies classes in schools don’t adequately address or they misinform on democracy, branches of government, Constitution, voting, etc
Yes, but they are civically illiterate on purpose. They reject educaton purpose. There is no fixing them. Might be just barely possible to outvote them in 2026, but very few MAGAts will be converted.
I wish there were a way to do that, but there isn’t. Red states, where education is most needed, are giving tax dollars to private, white, evangelical schools and ignorant home schoolers, so it’s getting worse, not better. I don’t see that changing the foreseeable future.
Btw it’s worth watching the LAPDs press conference following the weekend. ICE did not inform LAPD of their major activities so no LAPD was on site when dozens of heavily armed goons from ICE showed up at the fashion district (not fashionable it’s a whole sale area off downtown with hundreds of little stores). Once the situation escalated ICE called LAPD for support but LAPD had a hard time getting to the area because ICE created chaos and threw smoke and tear gas. So this was either utter incompetence from ICE or likely as you point out, a planned way to escalate the situation.
The rest of the law enforcement community has always loathed ICE. They act like out-of-control frat boys with trigger fingers, who've just found their daddy's gun after binge-drinking all night.
Keep in mind that this is American law enforcement, which isn't a terribly professional community in the first place, leaning heavily towards "over-armed and under-trained," and has an especially uninspiring record when it comes to following laws and respecting civil liberties. The fact that ICE is too much even for most of *them* speaks volumes for how unstable and dangerous they are.
The most powerful and effective image I have seen in the last few days was footage of Hispanic restaurant workers with bowls of milk wiping and assisting a couple of helpless police that had been hit by tear gas. It show humanity, irony and the moral weakness of the Trump position. We need more of that in the press showing the absurdity of Trumps actions, because Trump hates looking like a fool and eventually we will need those in the police and military to take a side. So when national guard and the marines show up beyond just peaceful resistance we must show them humanity and care. I know this sounds laughable but escalated resistance will only give him an excuse for more violence and fuel his hate driven base of supporters. My fear is that level of control and humanity if the face of oppression will not be possible.
I am really sad to watch all of this happening in USA, and I am born in Yugoslavia and grown in Serbia… really painful to watch and raise very bad memories… I hope you will find a way to stop this before it is too late and affect future generations
The current administration is a fascist regime that has lost all legitimacy.
The GOP won't be able to restrain themselves with this current exercise in sadism...err, crowd control.
Only four protestors died to National Guard gunfire at Kent State; but it was enough to shock the entire country into a course correction.
In reality, two of the four students killed at Kent State in May of 1970 were simply walking to class. James Michener wrote a wonderful book entitled simply "Kent State", where I learned their names: Sandra Shauer & William Schroeder.
And another was paralyzed for life by a bullet that hit him almost a quarter mile away
I read that book shortly after it was published. Gripping and outrageous.
Please report this spammer . I can’t. The report function doesn’t work on my iPhone.
You should not compare the U.S. of those days with the U.S. of today. Trump currently enjoys a 50% approval rating among American men. Most MAGA folks will never hear of Trump's many abuses of authority and illegal actions, and if they do it will be framed in a pro-Trump manner. Tens of millions of Americans actively seek out wildly biased far right media that supports their own biases. "Objective" truth or reality is no longer persuasive in America.
True. The Republican Party of the early 1970s put the Constitution first during Watergate, established the EPA, and supported reproductive rights and federalism. It considered hiring entertainers for important positions like the presidency lunacy. None of which is true today.
Correct. The GOP has finally degraded to the level of the people who celebrated the murders at Kent State, which was and continues to be a majority of white voters.
Tin soldiers and Nixon coming
We're finally on our own
This summer I hear the drumming
Four dead in Ohio
I'm pretty sure the majority of white voters did not celebrate the murders at Kent State.
...one thought...and i'm sorry if this is a bit long...however one describes the actions of the Nat'l Guard at Kent State, it was indeed a tragedy...I'm looking at the circumstances of then vs now: untrained reserve soldiers told they're facing a dangerous threat, heat of the summer wearing gas masks, little situational awareness, no crowd control gear, rifles with lethal rounds their only tool...all those elements are present right now anywhere that these troops are called up, & all it takes is one scared or hotheaded commander to give the order to fire, as happened at Kent. God forbid that happens anywhere, yet if it does, I pray the lion's share of blame is directed at those at the top placing troops there as provocation, not the lowest ranking soldiers or the protesters, or anyone caught in a crossfire
I am not so sure of this statement. I was a freshman in 1970 at another Ohio college and I heard many white woters who thought others should have been killed.
...one thought...and i'm sorry if this is a bit long...however one describes the actions of the Nat'l Guard at Kent State, it was indeed a tragedy...I'm looking at the circumstances of then vs now: untrained reserve soldiers told they're facing a dangerous threat, heat of the summer wearing gas masks, little situational awareness, no crowd control gear, rifles with lethal rounds their only tool...all those elements are present right now anywhere that these troops are called up, & all it takes is one scared or hotheaded commander to give the order to fire, as happened at Kent. God forbid that happens anywhere, yet if it does, I pray the lion's share of blame is directed at those at the top placing troops there as provocation, not the lowest ranking soldiers or the protesters, or anyone caught in a crossfire
...one thought...and i'm sorry if this is a bit long...however one describes the actions of the Nat'l Guard at Kent State, it was indeed a tragedy...I'm looking at the circumstances of then vs now: untrained reserve soldiers told they're facing a dangerous threat, heat of the summer wearing gas masks, little situational awareness, no crowd control gear, rifles with lethal rounds their only tool...all those elements are present right now anywhere that these troops are called up, & all it takes is one scared or hotheaded commander to give the order to fire, as happened at Kent. God forbid that happens anywhere, yet if it does, I pray the lion's share of blame is directed at those at the top placing troops there as provocation, not the lowest ranking soldiers or the protesters, or anyone caught in a crossfire
Rob, spot on. It's clear that if one side is constantly generating justifications for bigotry, hatred, and anger, while the other advocates for equality and justice, those two visions are irreconcilable. Bridging such a divide requires more than just conversation; it demands a shift in fundamental perspectives and priorities.
Some tiny bit of progress was made when schools were integrated by force for a few years, but that is long gone and MAGAts are ascending.
Actually, most of the MAGA folks will hear about it. They just don't care! For them, Trump's anti-democratic actions aren't a bug, there a feature. As long as black/brown Catholic immigrants are the target, they're happy. The other stuff is just irrelevant to them.
"Yeah! He hates who I hate- can't get more democratic than THAT!"
It won't be only black/brown Catholic immigrants as the targets for long.
When they come for those who have been thinking, "I'm all right, Jack," it will be too da_____ late. Tyranny is like that, even for those who think it's just dandy. There are no allies, just serfs-in-waiting.
I don’t believe 50% of American men are pro-trump. Our country has issues but we aren’t filled with that many idiots. He will always have a core base of followers but over the last few months we’ve seen more and more former trump fans change their tune as well.
Napolitan News Service surveyed 3,000 people between May 27 and June 3. The poll’s margin of error is plus/minus 1.8 percentage points.
Over half of men (58%) approve of Trump’s performance as president.
A sample size of 3,000 people out of a country of 343.6 million is not enough to conclude that over half of the men in the US are pro trump.
It's not my responsibility to teach you statistics. But you're wrong.
That percentage is meaningless during an election in which about 25 marginal seats in the House out of 435, and only 5 in the Senate will determine the direction of America politically and morally for the next two years!
Never heard of them. Polling is not simple, some organizations are better/more accurate than others. Also, can’t judge reaction to LA based on an old poll. That poll probably reflects the (mistaken) belief that Trump has pulled back on tariffs and prices won’t be going up after all.
Doesn't say much for American men...at least 58% of them.
They think they'll be OK, they'll be in the master class.
Fools.
I don’t know what’s more terrifying — that the majority actually supports his politics, marching us straight toward a totalitarian state… or that we’re a nation split in two, and sooner or later, that fracture will erupt. Into…let’s say…chaos.
I share your concern. Those who believe that Democrats are “against their way of life” (a successful phrase during the Iraq War) will dig in if challenged. Those standing up for democracy to continue must dig in more. All the Best-
Maybe I'm not following your point, but Nixon's approval both before and after May 4, 1970 was significantly above 50%. Also, Trump is actually underwater at about 46.6% approval in Nate Silver's polling average.
Kent State would not have been percieved as entirely partisan or reflective of the president, whereas Trump clearly owns this deployment.
This is an incredibly important point. His supporters are just wondering why the Fed police did not use real bullets. He, himself, is never in physical risk. But the military are happy to do his bidding. The protests are terrific. But he is not Lyndon Johnson. He will never step down, and the Congress will not take him down. Few are willing to hear this. But you are right. The American experiment is over.
Not quite; the actual decisive point in time will be in November, 2026 when the media report the results of the determinative House and Senate elections! That is when our Democracy is at risk or of strength! I vote for political strength, truth, honesty, respect, free speech and DEMOCRACY WRIT LARGE! Let's make it our individual commitment, each of us, to work diligently and effectively to carry both the House and the Senate by significant margins. We can do it--are you with it?
Let us run our best and our brightest and most truly, loyally patriotic, while they run their greediest, self-servingest and most nakedly traitorous. And make sure that ALL Americans see, feel, and hear the difference.
Gary Slovin: "The American experiment is over."
You give up easily, sir.
Just stay out of our way.
Love,
Tens of millions of Americans who prefer democracy to tyranny
It’s why they hate science, elite schools, and love toxic masculinity where they think they are in charge, till Mom come home, and tells him to grow up, 50 is too late.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0261379413001522
Kent State might not be a great comparison. Polling taken afterwards showed that most Americans thought the students had it coming, and barely about one tenth could actually bring themselves to blame the soldiers who committed the murders.
We've been sleepwalking into fascism for a long, long time.
Recall that we were still in the heavy fear-culture of nuclear war with Russia, so anything that was out of step with what the government was doing (Viet Nam) was seen as red-commie dangerous. College protests against the war were seen as that. So the 'mix,' if you will, is different now.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S026137941300152
Americans fail to meet the democratic ideal of an informed electorate, and the consequences of this political ignorance are a topic of significant scholarly debate. In two independent settings, we experimentally test the effect of political information on citizens' attitudes toward the major parties in the U.S. When uninformed citizens receive political information, they systematically shift their political preferences away from the Republican Party and toward the Democrats. A lack of knowledge on the policy positions of the parties significantly hinders the ability of low-socioeconomic-status citizens to translate their preferences into partisan opinions and vote choices. As a result, American public opinion—and potentially election results and public policy as a result—is significantly different from the counterfactual world in which all voters are informed
Not at all surprising, but, if ignorance is bliss, why are consumers of right-wing propaganda perpetually pissed off, even enraged?
Indeed
Only four at Kent State but two more at Jackson State
Yes, but that shocked nobody because the victims were black.
We only talk about the dead. The wounded may have had life-changing injuries, but we never hear about them.
No, it was not. Kent State--1970. Nixon's 1972 election: a 49-state win, with only MA standing for McGovern. Americans loved to see the snotty college kids get theirs. I was the same age as those murdered by the National Guard, and I thought Americans would be repelled by the murder of young people, not only at Kent State but at Jackson State (we forget the latter because, well, those were "just" Black kids). In 1972 I realized how wrong I was.
Been battling these bastards since 1963, and I guess you’ve been right there in the fight, too, Anca Vlasopolis. Too bad we’ve seen so little success and that it now has come to this, where they openly brag that cruelty is the point.
How right you are!
Recall that we were still in the heavy fear-culture of nuclear war with Russia, so anything that was out of step with what the government was doing (Viet Nam) was seen as red-commie dangerous. College protests against the war were seen as that. So the 'mix,' if you will, is different now.
Thank you. I was beginning to think nobody else remembered.
yes
Thus it is of crucial importance that this Saturday's No Kings demonstrations be peaceful and that everyone stays out of DC.
It is vital that protests are nonviolent. Otherwise we help provide a rationale for trump's authoritarian moves.
If you put enough protestors together with enough "crowd control", somebody in one side or the other will do something stupid and somebody else will panic. They can invent the violence by the protestors later to suit their needs.
Especially when the "somebodies" are placed there to specifically smash and burn things to justify EMERGENCY MEASURES. Reichstag Fire - bringing back the classics!
History may not repeat, but it rhymes...
So leave the military and Trump and the cops with nobody but crickets, and I hope it rains on the parade. "He gave a parade and nobody came."
Trump's authoritarian moves have already been made. There is no need for further rationale. Nonviolence equates with irrelevancy.
Mute!
Perhaps that's practical advice, but it is what it is.
For example: Ghandi was nonviolent, and is served up as a success in helping India gain independence.
But what did that "nonviolence" lead to, in fact? Ghandi's nonviolence not only helped India gain independence, but has (paradoxically) led to sectarian partition of the nation and extreme violence between Muslims and Hindus, and war between the partitionates, India and Pakistan and West and East (Bangladeshi) Pakistan.
I’m for nonviolent protests because I believe they are more effective. But I don’t believe we should tailor our actions to what provides a rationale for trump and his minions. They will find a rationale — even if we all hold hands and sing kumbaya. We can’t let them define our strategy and tactics
But I live here … 🙂
If you want to participate in a No Kings demonstration, there are plenty in close by Maryland and Virginia. If I lived in DC, I’d be going to the one in Bethesda, out side the Fox 5 studios. But there are many to choose from!
Don’t capitulate. Be mindful but protest where you want. They will blame us for violence whether any is committed or not (see Krugman above) so don’t let that determine where or how to protest! Size matters. Turn out.
Come on over to Arlington or head up to Philly.
I suggest aimlessly wandering the long, empty corridors of BWI.
Our locales protest dovetails with a trump birthday party rally. I think it’s safe to assume most of the MAGAts will be armed with firearms, as per their right. I hope there is a visible police presence.
The sheeple approach, eh?
Yes, like Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi. But I would like to think that if it were to come to violence the forces of democracy would be smart enough to not allow their enemy to choose the time, place and conditions for battle.
Too late.
The 2024 elections gave the Prince permission to do just that. And it’s what the Trumpists are doing: choosing the time and place on a day-by-day basis in the Cold Civil War being waged here and now.
L.A.’s just the warm-up. The outcome is quite likely to be the declaration of an insurrection, based upon the projected demonstrations planned nationwide. And he’s got the Army in D.C.
They’ve lined up their funding: Cryptocurrency, to the extent it’s not Musk or Bezos or Zuckerberg or one of our other new gods/multibillionaires. The three branches are in the hands of a single person. It’s not the “future” any more.
Brilliant choice.
The protest I will attend is a single-file line of people on sidewalks, sitting in chairs with signs, seven miles long, 7000 people expected. Noon until 2 p.m. Maybe some impressive video from drones overhead.
Please do it ANYWHERE but on the DC parade route. Leave nobody to watch but the president and his creepy thugs.
Agreed!
What legitimacy? It never had any to begin with.
Actually, that "win" is highly questionable:
https://electiontruthalliance.org/
https://smartelections.us/
Trumpkopf claimed 2020 was stolen? Behind every accusation is a confession.
No election is perfect—we’ve known that since 2000. Despite technological and legal changes since then, it still all comes down to systems and the people who implement them. Still, the 2024 election result was in line with consistent polling since 2021, and the fact that Democrats didn’t do as badly as they might have in 2022 (They did still lose the House, it was a loss even without a “red wave”) should not have been taken as proof that they were on the right track and that Biden could be re-elected.
That is true. However, it's not a question of the usual margin of error to be found in typical elections. There have been some pretty serious statistical anomalies detected in a number of districts, especially in Pennsylvania and one upstate NY district.
As for that election in 2000, it was "won" by fewer than 400 votes, in one state where the "winner's" brother was the governor, and finally found "legit" by a hard reichwing friendly SCOTUS. In other words, it was a total sham, if not a scam. We was robbed.
I wish I could claim credit for it, but I've seen it many times elsewhere on substack.
Because they bought the lies perpetrated by Fox News and other right-wing sources like Charlie Kirk and Ben Shapiro. Propaganda is a powerful tool.
Your point being? So did the Nazis in 1933.
Not by much! Certainly not a mandate.
The Constitution is like a patent: to circumvent it, one invents around it. I wonder if the pardon Trump issued to the insurrectionists serving him in 2020 annuls the 14th Amendment?
And if the Constitution falls, the Bill of Rights goes with it including the second amendment.
Thank you for mentioning this!
But to speak of “democracy” you cannot skip over “demos”—the people were not persuaded that Trump was a criminal/insurrectionist. We can speak of losing Constitutional order and the rule of law, but not “democracy” when the people are on the other side. If you think the people are unfit (because they are ignorant and bigoted) to rule, what then?
Interesting that SCOTUS Thomas's wife Ginny was in on it with financial support for some insurrectionist attendees.
Eff off spam bot.
It's a twitter link... you know it's of, by and for morons.
Except with its 73 million cultists followers. And their spawn, most likely.
Yes to this and to everything in Krugman’s post. We have to keep in mind, unfortunately, that 77 million Americans are enjoying the hell out of Trump’s lawless actions. Those 77 million are the crux of the problem, and it’s hard to imagine any workable fix.
how does one lose something it never had?
Amen!
Quite amazing DOGE didn’t flag that $45m parade as wasteful…oh well, nobody’s perfect.
The money being spent n the parade could have been used for veterans’ care. That would be a better way to celebrate the military.
Or the food rotting in warehouses that was supposed to go to US AID. WASTE!
That's a feature not a bug.
I wonder if the military will be goose stepping all the way behind the tanks. The whole thought of it wants to make me vomit.
It’s a dictator thing. See Russia and North Korea.
Welcome to the world of Alice in Wonderland. The Red Queen has decided that words can mean anything she wants them to mean. Only she has been replaced by, what shall we call him, the Orange Preen? It is perfectly OK if some Capitol “tourists” are way more violent than the “rebels“ in LA. The governor of California can become a “criminal“ without breaking any laws. Of course, then it is up to The Don’s whim whether or not you yourself could be a “criminal”. When meaning becomes this fluid then it becomes impossible to make a decision based on reason, or even common sense. Very handy for the Orange Preen’s court.
It's a stage for iron-fist militarism. I would be ZERO percent surprised if this is his official launch party for martial law and total government by decree.
So like, instead of the promised DOGE dividend all we’re getting is a parade/party? Or you mean Elon and Qatar are splitting the bill to kiss up?
“But always — do not forget this, Winston — always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — for ever.”
Not if I can help it! I do >not<, nor will I ever, love Big Brother.
It's a great reminder of the imperative that we continue to Rise! Resist! ✊✊✊
The next nationwide rally is this Saturday, June 14, yes >that< June 14, be there or be square!
Let's ruin Chump's B'day. We need 3.5% or the population, or around 12,000,000 people to be present. So bring all your friends and families. Spread the word as far and wide as possible. Let's all get out there with a Howard Beale spirit and yell "We're as mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!".
https://www.nokings.org/
P.S. Stay the hell away from D.C.! Don't give him an excuse to declare martial law!
And don’t forget to wear a mask at the rally. Trump can take his “NO MASKS” and shove it up his big fat ass.
Meet me in Room 101. I was told there would be snacks there.
Ah yes, the place where there is no darkness. Trumpkopf and his Evil Klown Krew has their own "Ministry of Love".
Edit: Oh yes, and rats are no snack!
The rats trucked in from Twentynine Palms are highly skilled and bring their own condiments.
They aren't rats. Marines are Americans just like us. They've been put into an intolerable position by Trump. I hope they have the courage to refuse to shoot other Americans if it comes to that.
Self-selected Tough Guys from rural authoritarian backgrounds, trained for violence and obedience to orders. Not deep critical thinkers.
What would be Trump's Room 101? A place where he is ignored, meaningless and irrelevant for the rest of his life.
...and the only food and drink is kale smoothies.
Solitary confinement
And in total poverty. He's never tasted that before.
And preferably only in the company of Rudy - the other irrelevant dictator.
They have shown already that they don’t need excuse.
Well, yes and no. King MAGA hasn't officially declared martial law just yet, even though he's acting it out in a thus far limited way.
Thank you, George, or should I say Eric Blair?
call me Max. Hero of democracy in my longtime hometown of Hamburg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Brauer
Trump has turned 4000 untrained weekend warriors and 500 trained killers loose on the people of Los Angeles. He made no provision to feed or house them so they are sleeping on concrete floors. That means that not only are they all on edge, now they are tired and hungry. It's only a matter of time before one or more of them snaps and empties their machine gun into a crowd. And then what? If he is not immediately impeached and removed, our democracy is lost forever. Or at least until we can turn our collective rage on elected Republicans and vote every one of them out.
I'm seeing a lot of disdain for the protests above. That is not good. It is the only legal, Constitutional avenue open to those of us who do not want to live in a Police State. I will be out there on Saturday with a lot of other protestors committed to keeping it peaceful and maybe just a little classy.
As will I. I want Trump and his MAGA thugs to see millions of us peacefully protesting him and his delusions of grandeur. He is a small, broken little man, the more of us that he sees are against him, the more it hurts his fragile ego.
The other thing we can do is not watch his big, bloated parade. There will be plenty of clips available which won't count toward his ratings.
I will only watch clips if something big happens, like the damn reviewing stand collapses or if they show empty stands along the route or if one of these monster tanks so damages a bridge over the Potomac that the bridge collapses.
Remember they get extremely upset when ordinary citizens rally to support marginalized people and march in support of democracy. Please keep things peaceful. No doubt the Jan. 6th folks will be out to pay for their pardons. This is our country.
We can be sure that almost every one of the troublemakers is a former J6 terrorist or some rando incel who wishes he had been there. They will be at many protests trying to incite violence. It'll suck for them if real protesters catch them before they can really act and turn them over to Trump's stormtroopers.
The NoKings.org website map shows an extraordinary array of planned protests, including ones in rural red communities. Even if those turn out to be only one or two people, they are willing to stick their necks out in hostile territory.
I live out amid the cotton fields in rural SW GA. I'm going to Tallahassee to participate. 50 miles away.
The protest I will attend will be a single file line of people sitting in chairs, seven miles long, 7,000 people expected. Sitting there for two hours. Finished at 2 p.m. Hard to find any violent potential in that.
I think you are missing the point of the protests. They are not meant to kick ICE out of LA - they cannot, but to put visible people behind the opposition to tRump.
And to make sure that the ICE gestapo know they are being watched and recorded...and everything can and will be used against them in a future court of law.
You need to study the history of movements for social change. Protests are an important part of that. They build community and solidarity, they show the majority that many millions of people are against what is happening, they help build confidence of people who aren't sure about things, they get the attention of lawmakers, and you know what? They piss the hell out of Trump and demoralize him. What are you proposing, from your armchair?
I think expressing that sentiment is OK, but we cannot be the ones to start any violence.
Amen to all your posts.
Are you going to Maverick County TX?
Peter, those weekend warriors are not untrained ... and they are residents of the the city they defend. The people on the streets are their friends, family and neighbors, on the streets and neighborhoods where they live.
We need to support them in their role to protect all from those who would escalate this to blood and chaos. We must not taunt or shame, but allow them to be the guardrail. We must remain peaceful in the face of those who taunt us. We must let higher minds and goals prevail.
We must also remind them that they must also stand against those who would give orders in conflict with their oath.
The national guard may be trained for some sorts of police work, the Marines are not. It is criminally insane to use Marines for domestic police work. They're trained to kill people and break things, not for guarding buildings. You don't need an order from the top to start chaos. All it takes is for one person, any person, to start shooting, and you can get a chain reaction with many casualties.
FWIW I'm an old Marine and this is correct. Very few Marines are trained in anything vaguely like crowd control or police actions. We are trained to fight. Deploying Marines to a US city like this is massively unfair to the Marines. And I have no doubt that if things "go wrong", Trump et al will be happy to blame the individual Marine rather than their own poor leadership.
"For might makes right; until they see the light, they've got to be protected, all their rights respected, 'til someone we like can be elected." - Tom Lehrer
Marines are trained to guard our embassies all over the world and have swore an oath to the Constitution.
And to protect citizens, not to take arms against them.
Agreed, use of Marines for this is inappropriate, and Marines themselves know it.
They are not being deployed to protect us they are being deployed to intimidate us and to protect the masked dickless thugs that make up Trump's gestapo. So if I encounter them, I will taunt them. I will insult them. And I will ask them why they have sold their souls to Trump's police state.
Yes to your last sentence. But no to the taunting and insulting. That will get you nowhere. But an impassioned, loud speech about their ability to walk off their jobs, yes. Remember, it is an all-volunteer military. They could be charged as AWOL. But not all of them all at once.
But oh it will be ever so cathartic. And in this ugly world we need catharsis.
I would like to encourage your not to do that. They are being put in a difficult place, slow walked by a series of legitimate orders to one that is not.
We must remind them of their oath and right to disobey illegitimate orders, appeal to the truth they know and their better angels.
Lead them to the higher ground over instigating anger and supporting the lie they've been told by 'leaders' who are the true insurrectionists.
Were they a ‘guardrail’ at Kent State and Jackson State?
Yes and no, Nixon was not attempting to militarized against US citizens ... yet we had Republicans in office with spines to oust him from office. And the Ohio called up the National Guard, not Nixon.
This time not so much. We have a spineless crew who will increasingly allow the despot to walk all over the Constitution, and a president trying to use state guard against its citizans and Governor. Hence the growing public unrest we now experience.
Anyone they murder will become a martyr. They can't keep us down forever. We will be back. Democracy will be restored - it's inevitable - we're the U.S. of A., it's in our DNA.
Maybe, but my level of confidence in that outcome is far lower than yours. I think Trump might make the mistake of adding gay people to his list of targets. The train on persecuting gay people left the station a long time ago, no matter what Hegseth thinks. Everyone now has loved ones they know are gay. Trump going that route is the only plausible ray of hope I see for breaking his stranglehold on 77 million Americans.
Oh that's coming soon enough. I mean, they've already targeted LGBTQ+ for elimination in various government entities, especially the military. Will they go as far as Schicklgruber and put them in camps along with "illegal aliens"? I doubt that, but who knows? I'm not prepared to put anything past TrumPox and his Evil Klown Kar of a misadministration.
Regardless, we'll be out there on Saturday, let's see what happens.
It's a great reminder of the imperative that we continue to Rise! Resist! ✊✊✊
The next nationwide rally is this Saturday, June 14, yes >that< June 14, be there or be square!
Let's ruin Chump's B'day. We need 3.5% or the population, or around 12,000,000 people to be present. So bring all your friends and families. Spread the word as far and wide as possible. Let's all get out there with a Howard Beale spirit and yell "We're as mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!".
https://www.nokings.org/
P.S. Stay the hell away from D.C.! Don't give him an excuse to declare martial law!
12M would be a good start, but I think the 3.5% number comes from places where a significant majority of the general population was inclined to oppose the offending government. In this case, roughly half the population thinks Trump is a hero, and well over half the dominant cohort (white Americans, 60% of whom voted for the felon). So, I suspect we need lot more than 3.5% to succeed. More like 8% to 12%. Just a guess, of course.
I expect us to hit that 3.5% this Saturday, so we'll see what effect that has. We're only 140 days into this coup, and already we've had numerous demonstrations, plus the one coming up in just 4 days. We're just getting warmed up. He's actually polling below 50% approval, by a lot, depending on which poll you're looking at.
I'd say the percentage of the population who think he's a hero is closer to around 30 - 33%. Remember that 1/3 of eligible voters didn't even bother to vote at all. Maybe all this will finally wake them up.
Maybe, but I think the ones who didn’t vote are more likely to break forbTrump than for the opposition. In any case, we must do what we can
I think large numbers in key areas ... think ports of Trade, commerce, international borders. LA county is huge, add San Francisco. New Jersey, New York, and yes my own little Detroit.
No need to bring it to the Capitol, no sign of intelligent life there.
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him... In this way you pour fiery coals on his head. Keep conquering the evil with the good." Romans 12:20, 21.
Those fiery coals are not punitive, they are an allusion to how metals were refined at the time. You may get a change of heart by treating your enemy right. In this case, showing them that you aren't their real enemy.
Uh… this works only with people who have a conscience. Trump and his acolytes don’t have consciences. They enjoy persecuting people they don’t like.
I wasn’t referring to Trump’s cultists, but the national guardsmen on the street, who might hesitate to shoot protesters who have shown them some kindness. I’m not near the trouble, but from the TV it appears that a few among the protesters are determined to cause a lot of noise and damage. I say “among” but it’s possible these are the “paid protesters” Trump mentions, conveniently omitting that HE is the one paying them. EVERY accusation is a confession, take that to the bank.
The NG/ICE contingent had little to do, as the LAPD did its usual number on protestors and journalists...NOBODY can bust heads, shoot "non-lethal" — LOL! — munitions, and fling flash-bangs and tear gas as well and as punitively as the Boys in Blue. They needed to polish their skills since the Rodney King trial-verdict riots, and here is the perfect opportunity. And the pathetic Mayor Karen Bass lecturing people about "violence", when "law enforcement" are kicking the shit out of her constituents...Jaysus!
Or they will walk off the job. This is possible. Remember, this is an all-volunteer military.
Remember, Trump’s minions (the Proud Boys, for example) crave violence and will start fires, throw bricks, and instigate fights to provide Trump with fictitious rationalization for his rampant lawlessness.
One thing I hope for is that the guardsmen and marines, being so recklessly deployed, will themselves protest against being used as tools for Trump’s authoritarian appetite. We know they were sent to LA without even arrangements for a place to sleep. The National Guard has historically entered disaster areas to help the citizenry. Most Guardsmen joined and have stayed in the guard out of a sense of service to the public and, frankly for some additional income and benefits.
Only on a few deeply regrettable occasions have they been deployed against Americans. Don’t be surprised if the guardsmen and marines express growing resentment for being used.
Flashback to the summer of 1932: Chancellor Franz von Papen uses the excuse of Nazi Stormtrooper violence to take control of the state of Prussia, ending Germany's thousand-year federal tradition. Over the following two years, Hitler destroys the autonomy of the other German states.
Since this $2B - $3B for the National Guard isn't budgeted, those in the know are suggesting that there will be National Guardsmen across America working for free for much of the remaining year.
Maybe that will open a few eyes even now, if the word gets out.
The Big Blowout Budget Barf has infinite money for ICE raids and the military. Because that's what a total coup requires.
I think the BBBB contains language that allows the president to use appropriations as a slush fund to spend however -- including so called "law enforcement."
The word will definitely get out as soon as they start asking where the hell their paychecks are.
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/5094602-a-landslide-just-0-15-percent-of-all-voters-determined-trumps-2024-victory/
With respect, Kim, I would expect little to no expression of protest from the troops. Yes, the deployment is reckless and wrong (see my other posts in this thread), but I can tell you that when I disagreed with an order (unless it was clearly an illegal order) I said "yes, sir, three bags full" and did my duty, and every serviceman and woman I know felt pretty much the same - and we had enormous trust in our superior officers to not issue an illegal order. In my entire military career I was subject to only one illegal order which I rejected and I was quickly backed up by the rest of the chain of command - I even received a commendation for disobeying that particular order. When this all goes wrong, please know that it will not be because the troops are bloodthirsty or automatons, or necessarily supporters of this President. They are just doing their duty.
With the Roberts court, it is very hard to discriminate between legal and illegal orders. Even the brass, who are well educated and generally supportive of the Constitution, will have difficulty deciding that any particular order is illegal.
I sure hope you're right about this.
That's just sweat from the alcohol...
Or the DTs.
I like kegsbreath
No one should go to this parade. Let’s fill the parks in the area if the weather permits.
We'll have our own parade: https://www.nokings.org/
Be there or be square!
P.S. Stay the hell away from D.C.! Don't give him an excuse to declare martial law!
I'm afraid that staying away from D.C. won't do the job. DonnyJon will have the Proud Boys there,pretending to be us, and burning things down.
Actually that's all the more reason to avoid D.C. Let the PB's do their thing - and let them be the only ones there to be arrested or shot.
As true as this is, *any non-zero amount* of violence and setting fires is something Trump can spin effectively. Mexican flags among the protests will also play well for him with the median voter. The protestors are handing Trump a free win and an easy distraction from his gutting of the economy.
Protest is American. Patriotic. Period. You suggest silently taking the boot-to-face?
The people causing disruptive violence in LA are:
- ICE
- Anarchists who've been roaming the West Coast for many years
- Right wing agitators
Democrats have conducted HUNDREDS of peaceful "Hands Off" marches this year.
One True Holy Salty Greasy Orange Toadstool doesn't want that.
He wants CHAOS.
That's how he gets to invoke martial law.
Peaceful or not he is going to do it ... I'm sure it was considered over the Tesla protests ... had Elon been better liked ....
I regret that I have but one life to give for my country.
You are on the wrong side here. It's gonna happen to some extent. And what we need is solidarity. No breaking ranks.
It's inevitable, I agree. Protests in the internet era are leaderless, so there's no way to prevent all violence and vandalism. My point is, that means it would be better if there were no protests. But of course it's inevitable that there will be protests also. A very bad situation, with no way out that I can see. Trump will simply win on this one. That also looks inevitable.
The only way I could see this not going his way is if innocent people get killed by the feds. But even that might not be enough given that the protestors have already been made to look like the bad guys to normies.
Try as you might to discourage us, we will not be discouraged.
Yes, I know. Good luck.
We've already had one Australian reporter and one BBC reporter shot; one with a plastic bullet and the other with a rubber bullet. The BBC reporter had to be hospitalized. And that's by National Guardsmen. Someone will be killed within half a day of the Marines deploying.
Agreed, but don't you think this is the stuff that allows leaders to rise?
I hope so... but it didn't happen in Occupy, it didn't happen in 2020, it's hard to see why it would happen now.
Because the guardrails were still in place, Congress was not completely shut down as it is now and we had just elected a new administration. We have traveled light years into the Upside Down since then.
And SCOTUS hadn’t invented presidential immunity yet.
So the answer is... sit on your thumb and wait for the knock on the door. Hello, Dr Niemöller, we know you're in there!
Actually, springboarding off your analogy, I think helping undocumented immigrants evade ICE is something people can do if they really want to improve the situation by defying the law. I'm afraid mass protests will hurt much more than they help right now.
The shit-burners are pros, hired to give Cheeto his Reichstag Fire. LA was chosen specifically because it is Enemy Territory.
And because he knows deep down that Gavin Newsom is a serious rival that would kick his ass in the next presidential election. A pissing contest to show who's boss.
The One True Holy Salty Greasy Orange Toadstool may remain in office, but he won't be running against Newsom or anyone else in that situation.
If there's anything the summer of 2020 should've taught us, it's that the narrative can operate completely free of facts on the ground. We saw video after video of cops assaulting people who were doing nothing; cops grab guy in wheelchair and throw him to the ground, cops drive through a residential neighborhood and pepper-spray people who're literally just standing there on their front porch, cop lines up a journalist even as the guy is filming him and shoots him with a rubber bullet. None of it mattered. The official line, which at this point is as much ingrained through repetition as anything else, was that violent anarchists were starting things and the poor beleaguered cops were just "responding" as best they could. We had a coast-to-coast nationwide police riot in 2020, and they weren't blamed for any of it.
If they're determined to turn this violent, a lack of fires or Mexican flags isn't going to make a difference.
Sit back and do nothing and see where that gets us
I've already said this previously today: Many mainstream and indie commentators see the federalisation of the Cali National Guard and deployment of Marines to LA as a warning to or foretaste of the White House response to upcoming national protests--that seems to be your take as well. My concern is that we'll soon see what took place on January 6--not a deployment of federal troops (which were, in fact, held back at that time), but a call to action to the militias and other MAGA gangs to oppose protestors, giving then an excuse to deploy actual military service members. That, in my view, would be the worst-case scenario for June 14th--and a tipping point into a fascist police state.
Interesting. Kinzinger is calling for Newsom to call up the rest of the states National Guard to keep them under CA control ... unless the despot supersedes him again.
That's a great idea. I hope Newsom listens.
Many Governors already co-signed a letter yesterday in support of Gov Newsom.
Very good news, we need as many Governors and Attorneys General to sign on as possible.
I'm waiting for Trump's (paid) "Jan. 6 Army" to appear any moment...
Trump never gives anything (like pardons) for free.
Believe they’re already working for ICE as we found out
Maybe, but Snopes says no...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/noem-jan-6-ice/?utm_source=mail.snopes.com&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=la-protests-kristi-noem-simone-biles&_bhlid=7cdb5fa8cdb1c1829073ab2383a5c1f68f41a719
Thank you for correcting me! The sad thing was with how crazy things are going is that I fully believed it was something they’d do!
Well, Snopes said they aren't OFFICIALLY working for ICE, but some could be in some manner.
Good point RE Juneteenth. Something to look out for.
Among other things, California is the desired destination as the biggest blue state and the place of Gavin Newsom, a principle rival if we ever hold elections again.
I'm in my early 70s and most of my acquaintances simply are just going about life as if nothing untoward has happened. We used to be a nation of voters. Now I believe we are a nation of distracted, acquiescent consumers who simply want comfort.
Almost no one seems to understand that mass mobilization is urgently needed. That safety is more likely if tens of millions take to the streets.
There will always be the frightened and the apathetic who don't deserve a democratic republic. But we need to recognize how far things have broken down. Schlessinger wrote The Imperial Presidency 50 years ago. Congress is bought and sold, uncompetitive and complaiscent. They are no longer a proud body jealous of their power. SCOTUS is largely a collection of mediocraties.
It's up to us. A screen-watching rabble obsessed with our own comfort and acquisitions.
Oh boy.
For what it’s worth, I’m your age and I have NOT turned my attention away from this unfolding menace. I live in Northern California, the current front line of this battle. As it continues, people who are now ‘sleeping’ through the turmoil will be forced to face it when it’s practically on their doorstep. It’s how we finally react to this treachery that matters most.
Words fail in these circumstances.
I am disturbed by media who report current affairs in the US as merely a weird-but-mandated process of ‘democracy’. It so closely resembles the usurpation of democracy in 1930s Europe..
Media needs to keep the feed leaning to the peaceful side of this protest and not inflate the misbehavior of the few who take advantage of chaos to loot.
There are a lot of factors leading to this situation, but an underlying problem is that a large portion of the US is civically illiterate. It’s not just social media. Social studies classes in schools don’t adequately address or they misinform on democracy, branches of government, Constitution, voting, etc
Yes, but they are civically illiterate on purpose. They reject educaton purpose. There is no fixing them. Might be just barely possible to outvote them in 2026, but very few MAGAts will be converted.
I agree but we have to somehow educate our kids for the future. If nothing else they should vote.
I wish there were a way to do that, but there isn’t. Red states, where education is most needed, are giving tax dollars to private, white, evangelical schools and ignorant home schoolers, so it’s getting worse, not better. I don’t see that changing the foreseeable future.
Btw it’s worth watching the LAPDs press conference following the weekend. ICE did not inform LAPD of their major activities so no LAPD was on site when dozens of heavily armed goons from ICE showed up at the fashion district (not fashionable it’s a whole sale area off downtown with hundreds of little stores). Once the situation escalated ICE called LAPD for support but LAPD had a hard time getting to the area because ICE created chaos and threw smoke and tear gas. So this was either utter incompetence from ICE or likely as you point out, a planned way to escalate the situation.
The rest of the law enforcement community has always loathed ICE. They act like out-of-control frat boys with trigger fingers, who've just found their daddy's gun after binge-drinking all night.
Keep in mind that this is American law enforcement, which isn't a terribly professional community in the first place, leaning heavily towards "over-armed and under-trained," and has an especially uninspiring record when it comes to following laws and respecting civil liberties. The fact that ICE is too much even for most of *them* speaks volumes for how unstable and dangerous they are.
True.
But seriously fuck him.
🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
So where are our senators and congressmen and business leaders? Hiding ! Why? Because they want to reap the spoils of this Machiavellian scheme!
Because they are highly informed about Second Amendment Remedies that await the families of those who 'create difficulties'.
What does that even mean?
It means that the MAGA crowd will torture and kill their families if they step out of line.
The most powerful and effective image I have seen in the last few days was footage of Hispanic restaurant workers with bowls of milk wiping and assisting a couple of helpless police that had been hit by tear gas. It show humanity, irony and the moral weakness of the Trump position. We need more of that in the press showing the absurdity of Trumps actions, because Trump hates looking like a fool and eventually we will need those in the police and military to take a side. So when national guard and the marines show up beyond just peaceful resistance we must show them humanity and care. I know this sounds laughable but escalated resistance will only give him an excuse for more violence and fuel his hate driven base of supporters. My fear is that level of control and humanity if the face of oppression will not be possible.
I am really sad to watch all of this happening in USA, and I am born in Yugoslavia and grown in Serbia… really painful to watch and raise very bad memories… I hope you will find a way to stop this before it is too late and affect future generations