Basic research (often at universities supported by government funding), an educated workforce, a healthy workforce, attracting ambitious immigrants seem fundamental underpinnings for prosperity and Trump is attacking all of them.
These jerks are anti-science until they have an M.I. or go into congestive heart failure in need of a bypass, and then they’ll 100% call on a Cardiologist, not RFKJr or Dr. Oz
As a general rule, MDs, along with engineers and dentists, are *NOT* scientists. At best, they provide diagnosis and treatment based on the discoveries of medical researchers. At worst they are Dr. Oz's or suppliers for addicts or anti-vaxxers.
I beg to differ with you. A strong background in science is needed for all the professions you named. One physician with whom I went to school very clearly understands and uses science. In fact, no physician can keep up with new treatments and studies without understanding science.
Science classes like physics and chemistry are teaching us what others have discovered (sometimes centuries ago). An engineer needs a strong grip on PV = nRT to design a fractionation process, but that doesn't make the engineer a scientist. Apollo flight technicians used a lot of math to calculate trajectories, but that didn't make them mathematicians. Even scientists use tools based on technology they neither know nor care about.
After I retired I took a lot of science classes at UT-Austin (including about 8 classes in geology and hydrology) just to learn stuff. That didn't make me a scientist.
Speaking as an engineer, there is certainly a bunch of “scientific” experimentation to determine what will work, particularly for new technologies. Perhaps if you’re designing a standard highway bridge you can just use a textbook. But new technologies like leading edge semiconductors require new science, for example to understand failure mechanisms. And I’m sure Apollo engineers also needed to do new science to deal with issues like space reliability.
Engineering is not *pure* science but still requires science.
Aye, but "bleeding edge" engineering (as at startups or skunkworks), is far from the norm. The engineers being held up as experts challenging science—evolution, climate change, etc.—are from the much greater portion of established, no-nonsense engineering. (I'd go far as saying that those who thrive as leading edge engineers have a much more open-minded approach to what's possible than those who are already staid and certain about their work.)
Picking up where Barbara left off, every single procedure and treatment a Cardiologist performs on behalf of his/her patient was either discovered via the scientific process, and/or was certainly tested and proven effective via the scientific process. Nothing in the statement you replied to warrants classifying professional medical practitioners as non-scientists. That may be an interesting debate topic for someone. Not for me.
Just *using* the benefits of science doesn't make someone a scientist. Sending messages on my cell phone doesn't make me a scientist. The X-ray tech at my orthopedists' office is not a scientist. My doctor hooking up the nth-generation EKG machine to me is not a scientist. My DDS using advance materials to construct my dental work is not a scientist. The tech operating the MRI machine is not a scientist. The radiologist reading my mammogram isn't a scientist.
You’re obviously correct. And you’re just as obviously not refuting my original point, which to put it another way is that the smartest 90% of anti-science tRumpers will jump off the anti-science horse when their life is on the line. A Cardiologist’s practice is based on science, so if you are truly anti-science you would seek help elsewhere when you’re having cardiac problems. Perhaps you would go to a faith healer. That’s the only point I was originally making. Thanks for your comments.
I disagree. As an engineer with a PhD, we perform a lot of research. Every day we problem solve and use our critical thinking skills, often employing the Scientific Method as one of our many tools.
There's basic vs applied research and applied research is just as important as basic research. Applied research takes proven scientific principles to develop new products and processes. This is how the transistor, software, advanced materials and other life changing things have been invented.
And just how many engineers do basic research like you, whether in university labs or company R&D departments?
I consider my father and his colleagues, my two brothers, my sister, my husband, my own colleagues and myself as more like the norm, solving problems with available tech—sometimes very *new* tech. Now some of the work we do may entail solving tricky puzzles, but it's not like we were researching new battery anode architecture or bleeding edge epitaxy or new methods of gene manipulation.
Twenty years ago I was looking forward to a new and expanding crop of graduates with battery expertise (both mobile and slab-based), at which point we'd have critical mass of start-up grade employees in a competition for coming up with winning battery designs/chemistries funded by different VC firms. (I lived through that period for different tech in the 1980s.)
Having seen this cycle a few times over the decades, I predicted that in this race for the Big Winner, a lot of hyped up investors would *lose* a lot of money, and those that back the right tech would get insanely rich.
What's different this time is that China graduates over a million engineers a year, and makes *very* good use of them. CATL battery innovation is insane.
"As a general rule" is as anti-science a comment as they come. All at graduate level, I am a chemical engineer (which is very much science), a food technology scientist (clear in name) and a business administrator. Who would you call a scientist?
"As a general rule" means that some small subset of MDs, engineers, violinists, bongo players, etc., are *also* scientists, but most are not. David Gorski, for example, is a surgeon *and* participates in oncology research. My PCP and dentist read scientific journals, but that does not make them scientists.
Scientists work to discover facts about the physical world. They follow the scientific method, they methodically gather data and submit it to various forms of logical and statistical testing. They develop models to describe how they think a [bio]physical system works and test that against the real world.
Graduating from medical school means they have *learned* a lot of what is known about the human body and how to treat illnesses. They apply a lot of that idiomatically because they don't really have to know the details of the operation of either organs or pharmaceuticals. They use canned mnemonics to recognize certain common diseases, and they don't have to "do their own research" since medical scientists have done it for them.
Likewise, I have a background in engineering (an *applied science*), and used predefined language and system specifications to implement software systems. My sister is an industrial process engineer who worked on chemical plants, oil refineries, coal plants, etc. She did not have to figure out what temperatures and pressures were needed to specify which different materials and components should be used because somebody did the physical research to establish that decades ago. She read design journals to keep up with what vendors could provide.
In my years dealing with Creationists on talk.origins we had to explain to them that their long lists of doctors, dentists and engineers did not constitute "scientists who doubted evolution." https://ncse.ngo/project-steve
I think the confusion here is between “scientist” and “researcher“. The first is a much broader category than the second.
I’m a PhD researcher who works with lots of masters-level scientists. They do (and understand!) the essential details of technical and statistical analyses that I would completely screw up. The whole thing is an exercise of “science” and I’d call all of us “scientists”.
re “[doctors] provide (only) diagnosis and treatment based on the discoveries of medical researchers.” What’s your point exactly? This regime is attacking medicine, universities, and research suggesting that it is hostile to science—from the lab to applied settings. This regime isn’t concerned with parsing who is a basic researcher, who practices applied science, who is just guided by science—with who is a scientist. They need to attack expertise that might resist MAGA fantasy, and any research, application, or student of science poses a threat, or an irritation, to their claims of truth and power.
Too few people understand what scientists are and do, including reporters, screenwriters, and conspiracy theorists. Creationists, anti-vaxxers and global warming denialists, for example, think that their "expert" MD or lifelong engineer can refute scientific research by using irrelevant expertise and fancy terminology.
Conversely, I've started to notice reporters' interviews with their favorite climate scientists include questions (dealing with flooding or wildfire adaptation or mitigation) that should be aimed at municipal and civil engineers. (Hell, even the climate scientists don't know enough to point reporters to ask the relevant engineers.) People can get some exposure to how scientific experiments are done in high school, but don't have any exposure to the role of engineering until college, if ever.
BTW, if you want more insight into the war on expertise:
- The Republican War on Science (2005), by Chris Mooney
- Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Climate Change (2011), by Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway
- The Death of Expertise: The Campaign Against Established Knowledge and Why It Matters (2024), by Tom Nichols
[There are many more excellent books on the subject.]
I attended a "pro-science" protest on Saturday. One naive man held a sign saying "Science is not political". To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he meant that sign as a shortcut to say: Science research shouldn't be a partisan issue... maybe.
But the reality is that Science funding CERTAINLY IS political. AND a significant number of our fellow Americans have given the executive power of our country to an anti-science dumb-ass.
Trump is at the upper left peak of the Dunning-Kruger curve! 👇
It's a spam bot. I keep reporting it every time it shows up. It will be removed soon. But, as you've noted, it will continue to appear under other "handles". At which point, I will report it again.
On the right hand side of every comment is a "three dots in a row" menu button. When you click on it, the last option in the menu, highlighted orange, is "Report".
Click that link, a dialog box pops up with a "Reason" box. Just type "Spam" and click the "Submit" button.
You can also report especially prolific trolls with it. Regular obnoxious trolls I just block, but if they're posting their garbage all over the place, I'll report them.
Right, Natalie. So who decreed the name should be pronounced "dohj", as in "Doge of Venice"? Somebody decided to promote Dog E. from joke meme to "first magistrate of the Venetian Republic" ca. 1790. That's giving Elon far too much credit.
I totally agree with Mr Krugman's assessment here. There's a nihilistic void at the base of Trump's mentality, vengeful for vengeance's sake which appears to captivate cult members. The "own the libs" rallying cry is an example. Own them, okay, then what?
For the hardcore cultists, there is no "then what"? Own the libs is the end game. Anything else is irrelevant to them. They're too simplistic to think beyond anything Faux Newspeak doesn't tell them to think.
Yes that’s correct. There’s a great story in the NYT about how the GOP was taken over by people who prefer to own the libs even if it means abandoning conservative aims.
Sounds like a pretty accurate description of what we're seeing from this regime. My initial impression was that "eternity" politics is about sending us all into eternity. They're doing a pretty damn good job of it.
It’s a great read. His ‘sadopopulism’ is more relevant today than it was at the time of publication. It’s also still Interesting to see the way he recognised Vladislav Surkov and his strategies in post Soviet democracy. Something that Adam Curtis picked up on very early also.
I agree Trump attracts people with the same "vengence for vengence sake." It's those people who are arguably *more* dangerous than Trump, because those people "make the trains run on time." IMO the most dangerous people in Trump's cult are actually much lesser known people like OMB Director Russell Vought, who's goal is to make federal employees not want to come to work. It's people like the DOGE "Dunning-Kruger Kid" who spent hours screaming at and berating federal employees.
As to your "Then what?" question, I don't think Trump knows. Elon, I believe, thinks he knows. His goal is to replace most of the functions of the federal government with AI. Given the tariff crap that came out of ChatGPT and Grok...let's just say I think we're probably years away from Skynet even if Elon doesn't know it. (Somebody *really* needs to make that Terminator: Tariff War movie Dr. Krugman suggested. 🤣)
I understand your frustration, but don't give up your sense of compassion. They're still human beings who have inherent worth, however misguided or even filled with rage they may be. This doesn't mean you have to coddle them, though.
While the ignoranti are victims of misinformation and propaganda from FOX, Newsmax, Breitbart, RT, and forty years of GOP smears, they are also perpetrators. It's not entirely unlike child molesters who were victims of child abuse when they were young. But yes, even Trumpists are human beings who don't deserve genocide. They deserve to find out they fucked up.
If the MAGA crowd weren't so anti-intellectual that they wouldn't think to learn French, another cry you could attribute to them would be "après nous, le deluge!"
I see them as being in part as the ugly denouement of the Fossil Fuel Age, and it makes sense that Trump's route to electoral victory ran through the Rust Belt. A region where most people live in sprawling suburbia necessitating a lot of driving, in homes that cost a lot of energy to keep warm in the region's frigid winters, and whose main industry is the manufacture of polluting cars, clearly has no future in a Net Zero world.
Another possibility is the migration of Southern whites around the country. Here’s the link to the National Bureau of Economic Research working paper exploring this idea. What’s surprising is the how the recent migrants change local culture instead of assimilating to it, which differs from Colin Woodard’s “American Nations”. In “American Nations” Woodard finds recent immigrants assimilate to the culture established by European immigration 300 years ago. It appears Southern and Appalachian whites have a special kind of obstinacy that wears down anyone else.
Sarah Taber disputed the view that migrating Southern whites somehow "infected" other parts of the US with white-supremacist ideas, and would likely claim that it's yet another attempt by wealthy reactionaries to frame the working class for Trumpism.
The old South was a zero-sum extractive economy where wealth and power rested on the ownership of land (and prior to the Civil War, slaves). It was a culture that saw little use in educating the masses as its economy rested on cheap labor rather than skilled labor, so poor people who fled the South mostly ended up working in similar extractive industries elsewhere, where the ruling elites were similarly reactionary.
And if an area was popular with _white_ Southern immigrants specifically, this was often because it was ALREADY a sundown town (or in Oregon's case, an entire sundown STATE).
I grew up in the South. Went to a Southern U for three years. Transferred to a Big Ten, which accepted me - but insisted I take all basic core classes over. Why? Because what was taught in Southern schools was tainted science, history, economics, social sciences, even the arts. In a my first history class at the new U, I learned the history of lynching - I'd heard of it, but like a distant bell. I was appalled to be part of such a society.
Taber also pointed out, IIRC, that the shift towards right-wing politics in places that Southerners migrated to was as much a reaction to them as an import by them - locals basically reacted to the sudden influx of dirt-poor working-class Southerners the same way people today react to an increase in visible homelessness, and lurched right as a result. (This is especially true because it was very rarely *just* white Southerners moving to extractive industry locations, so in addition to an influx of redneck workers you'd also often have an influx of black or immigrant workers, all of which were great for triggering the locals' "make it like it was before, when all the scary new people weren't there yet!" yearning).
Eh. They can make it work. Studies show you can even make solar work in Alaska. If it isn't working, it is because you haven't installed enough panels. In the north, they might beed to be bifacial and tipped at an angle where the snow will slide off or mounted vertically, but there is a way. They get cheaper every day. A while ago someone decided to paint his house with them because they were cheaper than siding. They keep coming down. Few live above the arctic circle, and if we were smart we'd build better transmission grids so that solar in other timezones or hemisphere could power buildings here. The sun is always up somewhere.
The real problem isn't homes though but jobs: areas that are heavily dependent on climate-damaging sectors – coal, oil, gas, cars and (to a lesser extent) heavy industry more generally – usually find it extremely difficult to find greener means to earn a living.
It’s no different than a lynch mob. Individuals work themselves into a collective frenzy and end up doing things that they would never do on their own. Beware of large groups of people.
That is clearly intelligent thinking. It also assumes self awareness when doing stupid things. As of right now, the DOW is down 1265...is the cause of this drop aware?
The analogy to the Cultural Revolution is strikingly accurate. Following the “Great Leap Forward” which also failed, perhaps Trump can rebrand it as the Great Leap Backward concurrent with the Kakistocratic Plunge!
Except for whatever reason Trump has charisma with his base, far more than Musk or any of the P2025 authors who are now in power demolishing government. Trump can veto their projects when it suits him. But he's a lazy solipsistic character, so he doesn't do that often. Then when he does lead a project like the tariffs he does it very badly. It's amazing this card condominium skyscraper hasn't collapsed yet from its shoddy construction. But in a few months it will fall apart catastrophically, taking most of the US economy with it. And the disinvestment in science and technology will take decades to recover from. I wonder if I will live long enough to see the recovery (I'm 60 and many family members lived to 90 in my tree, though my younger brother is dying of cancer, probably soon).
Part of their appeal, to be sure. Other part is the end of Jim Crow which required Feds having power over what states do to citizens within their borders and the rules that make people citizens and entitle them to vote for governments according to their interests. Some folks have nostalgia for “states’ rights” to ensure white power and patriarchal norms around reproduction (control over the bodies of women and the education of children) to perpetuate it. I find it difficult to have respectful debates with people who deny my right to exist, have rights, or express my interests. But I do believe that difficult conversations like this are necessary - between ordinary Gazans and ordinary Israelis, among between MAGA and civil rights groups - not so much to actually find “solutions” (yet) but to begin the process of recognizing the humanity of both sides.
The damage done by the Cultural Revolution was ugly, deep, and lasting.
I'm concerned, like you Prof Krugman, that if a similar orgy of spite and vandalism gets going in the US the wreckage will last a long time. I also suspect that Chinese history and regional culture helped the Chinese recover much faster than US folks will manage to do.
We're watching what's going on in the US from the EU and are saddened and anxious for the welfare and safety of the people of the United States. We hope for the best but right now it doesn't look good over there.
You people had better fight like hell to turn this disaster around. Time is short.
I know several Trump supporters. They're not lunatics. Most are ordinary people blinded by fear or greed. These are normal emotions which many of us tamp down through reason and compassion. But Trump's appeal is that he validates the worst part of ourselves. For many, that is irresistible. Calling them lunatics will not change their minds or pry away their support. Sadly, only when they face the harsh reality of Trump's disastrous policies will they begin to realize their mistake. At that time, we must welcome their conversion.
Yes. That's my assessment as well. However, I believe that effective propaganda is also a key factor.
I think peaceful protests will help those taken in by the propaganda question their beliefs and decisions. It's hard to miss a couple of hundred people along the sidewalk in front of the courthouse in a very MAGA town.
There’s no reason not to call them lunatics. It’s what they are. People who are only motivated by hate, fear and greed and who will believe any nonsense that serves to undergird their hate, fear, and greed are lunatics. No rational argumentation will ever change their minds. They are list causes.
Hopefully enough of them will "prodigal son" their way to voting in a Congress in 2026 that respects the rule of law maybe even impeachment. I for one am fattening a calf for them.
Oh, please, let's not go down the name-calling path, tempting though it is! I still can't get over the fact that DJT called the VP of the United States " a low IQ bitch" in public with no consequences. It would be a career-ender for anyone else.
That said, is there a DJT voodoo doll I can put pins in????
Trump is clearly incapable of a strategy, but I’m not as sure about the men behind him. In the time between when Trump first left office and his second term, there was ample opportunity for plans to be made on how best to overturn our country’s democracy and I believe we are witnessing the results.
“But as I said, Trump and his movement are driven by visceral urges, not strategy.”
"Trump is clearly incapable of a strategy" - true, but the real movers behind his "throne", the Russell Voughts and the Koch brothers and Putin, and a host of other shady figures DO have a strategy. All they have to do is to whisper sweet blandishments (with an emphasis on "bland") in DJT's ear to get him to move in the direction they choose. With a guy like him, that's like giving candy to a 5-year old.
Be sure to include Peter Thiel. He’s a huge part of the nihilism that courses through MAGA and is content to stay in the shadows where he can do his dirty work out of public scrutiny.
Yes, I quite agree. There are many such shadowy, mean-spirited figures pulling strings in the background, and all working together to destroy the US as it has been for the last 80 years, and pull the entire country by a ring thro' its' nose, and limbs in shackles, back to the 1890's when all was peachy for a few extremely rich people and the corporations and big landowners. All the rest were to be treated as serfs, whose only value was measured in how much demeaning, back-breaking work they could manage for a pittance in a 24-hour period.
The Cultural Revolution was an extraordinarily bloody period and horrifying period in Chinese history that resulted in the violent deaths of millions, families destroyed, cultural monuments obliterated, etc. As bad as Trump is, any comparison to that trauma is bound to seem almost insulting to Chinese who were effected by it. Trumpism is more like Putinism - a lot of radical talk tempered by greed, naked self-interest and incredible incompetence. Mao offered a coherent ideological vision to angry young people. Trump is still trying to be many things to many people. It’s hard to lead a revolution that’s good simultaneously for billionaires, suburban small businessmen, farmers and factory workers.
I agree. Also, unlike the Cultural Revolution the Trump “Revolution” wants to preserve, restore, and honor certain aspects of America’s past, including the traditional public architecture and art, family structure, etc.
The destructive and evil Cultural Revolution in China is a relevant model for understanding what’s going on in USA. As the MAGA, it was a violent part of a struggle for political power. But the MAGAs are also related to Khmer Rouge, the murderous movement ruling Cambodia. The Khmer Rouge ruled, tortured and killed until Viet Nam lost patience, rolled over them and stopped their mass murder of their own people in 1979.
Khmer Rouge best friend China punished Vietnam with an invasion from the north, chased out again easily by the much more experienced Vietnamese Army.
The Khmer Rouge were aggressive antiintellectuals, killing all Khmers assumed to have an education, wearing glasses, living in cities etc. During their short rule, they probably killed 2 million of their own people and infected the countryside with land mines. As the MAGAs, the Khmer Rouge recruited people with a revenge motive and gave them a «hang Mike Pence»- or Lock her up»-mission.
I worked and lived with my family in Hanoi at the time, responsible for the Norwegian development program in Vietnam. Khmer Rouge really made a lasting impression.
The motivation and the targets of MAGA and the Cultural Revolution are strikingly similar. So far, there is significant difference. MAGA has not yet turned into the mass mob violence of the Cultural Revolution.
When I was in grad school one of my housemates had come up through those days and was one of the early wave back to school when the schools re-opened. She recalled being a child and opening the eyelids of corpses in the street believing she would find someone alive and save their life.
The attacks on intellectuals are key for any fascist takeover. Intelligent, articulate people are the first target. Fascists don't mind the angry off the wall types, they can be rounded up later. What they can't abide are the good convincing arguments that stick in people's minds.
The worship of ignorance has its roots in fear that the intelligent must be out of kill the stupid. Which in itself is a bad conclusion. Trump’s easter
Sermon is certainly vile, and vindictive. It also has the seeds of a backfire seeing as he flies in the face of Christian attention to the holiday on the day of the passing of one of the most beloved Popes in history. Trump has become a whiner. That’s the very thing he insists is weak and deserving of being taken down. If that isn’t ignorance personified I am amazed.
There is basically no difference between what we see as the far left and far right in the world of politics. The reality is that both extremes want and exercise power in accordance to their ideology. The real issue is the conflict between ideology and the part of the world that looks to the scientific method to deal with problems and questions. Once you convince someone of an ideological position there is little one can do move them as they have the faith. In many ways I look at what is happening currently much like the conflict between religion and progress that played out during the Renaissance. During the Renaissance some were burned at the stake for introducing the use of the concept of zero. Zero was seen as spreading a concept created by the devil. Much of what we are seeing now is just a stupid. However it is dressed up in much more acceptable terms.
Ahhh the moronic horseshoe theory in the wild. One side wants absolute domination and genocide, the other wants economic and social freedom and a progressive society. Totally the same things. Mindless fucking centrists.
Basic research (often at universities supported by government funding), an educated workforce, a healthy workforce, attracting ambitious immigrants seem fundamental underpinnings for prosperity and Trump is attacking all of them.
These jerks are anti-science until they have an M.I. or go into congestive heart failure in need of a bypass, and then they’ll 100% call on a Cardiologist, not RFKJr or Dr. Oz
As a general rule, MDs, along with engineers and dentists, are *NOT* scientists. At best, they provide diagnosis and treatment based on the discoveries of medical researchers. At worst they are Dr. Oz's or suppliers for addicts or anti-vaxxers.
I beg to differ with you. A strong background in science is needed for all the professions you named. One physician with whom I went to school very clearly understands and uses science. In fact, no physician can keep up with new treatments and studies without understanding science.
Science classes like physics and chemistry are teaching us what others have discovered (sometimes centuries ago). An engineer needs a strong grip on PV = nRT to design a fractionation process, but that doesn't make the engineer a scientist. Apollo flight technicians used a lot of math to calculate trajectories, but that didn't make them mathematicians. Even scientists use tools based on technology they neither know nor care about.
After I retired I took a lot of science classes at UT-Austin (including about 8 classes in geology and hydrology) just to learn stuff. That didn't make me a scientist.
Speaking as an engineer, there is certainly a bunch of “scientific” experimentation to determine what will work, particularly for new technologies. Perhaps if you’re designing a standard highway bridge you can just use a textbook. But new technologies like leading edge semiconductors require new science, for example to understand failure mechanisms. And I’m sure Apollo engineers also needed to do new science to deal with issues like space reliability.
Engineering is not *pure* science but still requires science.
Aye, but "bleeding edge" engineering (as at startups or skunkworks), is far from the norm. The engineers being held up as experts challenging science—evolution, climate change, etc.—are from the much greater portion of established, no-nonsense engineering. (I'd go far as saying that those who thrive as leading edge engineers have a much more open-minded approach to what's possible than those who are already staid and certain about their work.)
Picking up where Barbara left off, every single procedure and treatment a Cardiologist performs on behalf of his/her patient was either discovered via the scientific process, and/or was certainly tested and proven effective via the scientific process. Nothing in the statement you replied to warrants classifying professional medical practitioners as non-scientists. That may be an interesting debate topic for someone. Not for me.
Just *using* the benefits of science doesn't make someone a scientist. Sending messages on my cell phone doesn't make me a scientist. The X-ray tech at my orthopedists' office is not a scientist. My doctor hooking up the nth-generation EKG machine to me is not a scientist. My DDS using advance materials to construct my dental work is not a scientist. The tech operating the MRI machine is not a scientist. The radiologist reading my mammogram isn't a scientist.
You’re obviously correct. And you’re just as obviously not refuting my original point, which to put it another way is that the smartest 90% of anti-science tRumpers will jump off the anti-science horse when their life is on the line. A Cardiologist’s practice is based on science, so if you are truly anti-science you would seek help elsewhere when you’re having cardiac problems. Perhaps you would go to a faith healer. That’s the only point I was originally making. Thanks for your comments.
I don't know how to insert images in this forum, but here is a classic Doonesbury where creationist Duke discusses treatment with his doctor.
https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2F442983a/MediaObjects/41586_2006_Article_BF442983a_Fig1_HTML.jpg
I disagree. As an engineer with a PhD, we perform a lot of research. Every day we problem solve and use our critical thinking skills, often employing the Scientific Method as one of our many tools.
There's basic vs applied research and applied research is just as important as basic research. Applied research takes proven scientific principles to develop new products and processes. This is how the transistor, software, advanced materials and other life changing things have been invented.
And just how many engineers do basic research like you, whether in university labs or company R&D departments?
I consider my father and his colleagues, my two brothers, my sister, my husband, my own colleagues and myself as more like the norm, solving problems with available tech—sometimes very *new* tech. Now some of the work we do may entail solving tricky puzzles, but it's not like we were researching new battery anode architecture or bleeding edge epitaxy or new methods of gene manipulation.
It's funny that you mentioned battery anode architecture because in grad school, I studied fuel cell cathode architecture
Twenty years ago I was looking forward to a new and expanding crop of graduates with battery expertise (both mobile and slab-based), at which point we'd have critical mass of start-up grade employees in a competition for coming up with winning battery designs/chemistries funded by different VC firms. (I lived through that period for different tech in the 1980s.)
Having seen this cycle a few times over the decades, I predicted that in this race for the Big Winner, a lot of hyped up investors would *lose* a lot of money, and those that back the right tech would get insanely rich.
What's different this time is that China graduates over a million engineers a year, and makes *very* good use of them. CATL battery innovation is insane.
"As a general rule" is as anti-science a comment as they come. All at graduate level, I am a chemical engineer (which is very much science), a food technology scientist (clear in name) and a business administrator. Who would you call a scientist?
"As a general rule" means that some small subset of MDs, engineers, violinists, bongo players, etc., are *also* scientists, but most are not. David Gorski, for example, is a surgeon *and* participates in oncology research. My PCP and dentist read scientific journals, but that does not make them scientists.
Scientists work to discover facts about the physical world. They follow the scientific method, they methodically gather data and submit it to various forms of logical and statistical testing. They develop models to describe how they think a [bio]physical system works and test that against the real world.
Graduating from medical school means they have *learned* a lot of what is known about the human body and how to treat illnesses. They apply a lot of that idiomatically because they don't really have to know the details of the operation of either organs or pharmaceuticals. They use canned mnemonics to recognize certain common diseases, and they don't have to "do their own research" since medical scientists have done it for them.
https://geekymedics.com/medical-mnemonics/
Likewise, I have a background in engineering (an *applied science*), and used predefined language and system specifications to implement software systems. My sister is an industrial process engineer who worked on chemical plants, oil refineries, coal plants, etc. She did not have to figure out what temperatures and pressures were needed to specify which different materials and components should be used because somebody did the physical research to establish that decades ago. She read design journals to keep up with what vendors could provide.
In my years dealing with Creationists on talk.origins we had to explain to them that their long lists of doctors, dentists and engineers did not constitute "scientists who doubted evolution." https://ncse.ngo/project-steve
I think the confusion here is between “scientist” and “researcher“. The first is a much broader category than the second.
I’m a PhD researcher who works with lots of masters-level scientists. They do (and understand!) the essential details of technical and statistical analyses that I would completely screw up. The whole thing is an exercise of “science” and I’d call all of us “scientists”.
re “[doctors] provide (only) diagnosis and treatment based on the discoveries of medical researchers.” What’s your point exactly? This regime is attacking medicine, universities, and research suggesting that it is hostile to science—from the lab to applied settings. This regime isn’t concerned with parsing who is a basic researcher, who practices applied science, who is just guided by science—with who is a scientist. They need to attack expertise that might resist MAGA fantasy, and any research, application, or student of science poses a threat, or an irritation, to their claims of truth and power.
"What's your point exactly?"
Too few people understand what scientists are and do, including reporters, screenwriters, and conspiracy theorists. Creationists, anti-vaxxers and global warming denialists, for example, think that their "expert" MD or lifelong engineer can refute scientific research by using irrelevant expertise and fancy terminology.
Conversely, I've started to notice reporters' interviews with their favorite climate scientists include questions (dealing with flooding or wildfire adaptation or mitigation) that should be aimed at municipal and civil engineers. (Hell, even the climate scientists don't know enough to point reporters to ask the relevant engineers.) People can get some exposure to how scientific experiments are done in high school, but don't have any exposure to the role of engineering until college, if ever.
BTW, if you want more insight into the war on expertise:
- The Republican War on Science (2005), by Chris Mooney
- Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Climate Change (2011), by Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway
- The Death of Expertise: The Campaign Against Established Knowledge and Why It Matters (2024), by Tom Nichols
[There are many more excellent books on the subject.]
?? I think you're replying to the wrong comment.
They often have science backgrounds. My surgeon daughter has a B.Sc. in chemistry.
I attended a "pro-science" protest on Saturday. One naive man held a sign saying "Science is not political". To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he meant that sign as a shortcut to say: Science research shouldn't be a partisan issue... maybe.
But the reality is that Science funding CERTAINLY IS political. AND a significant number of our fellow Americans have given the executive power of our country to an anti-science dumb-ass.
Trump is at the upper left peak of the Dunning-Kruger curve! 👇
https://bsky.app/profile/justinsg.bsky.social/post/3lgyra2gsl22b
That!
By
Off topic, but I’d like to float the idea of fighting back against DOGE by calling it DIRGE — Dope Is Reducing Government Efficiency
And TARIFFS = Total A*hole Randomly Implements F**king Foolish Shit?
I think we have invented a new game for long car trips!
It's a spam bot. I keep reporting it every time it shows up. It will be removed soon. But, as you've noted, it will continue to appear under other "handles". At which point, I will report it again.
How do you report it. I’ve seen it elsewhere.
On the right hand side of every comment is a "three dots in a row" menu button. When you click on it, the last option in the menu, highlighted orange, is "Report".
Click that link, a dialog box pops up with a "Reason" box. Just type "Spam" and click the "Submit" button.
You can also report especially prolific trolls with it. Regular obnoxious trolls I just block, but if they're posting their garbage all over the place, I'll report them.
That sounds more like a run of the mill troll.
Please pronouncel it "Dodge-y"!
Hayley, I think "DOUCHE" is also an acceptable pronunciation. It's French...😉
I think DOUCHE is absolutely perfect.
How about "Dog E."? As in, Dog E. & the Muskrats (a.k.a. "the Dunning-Kruger kids").
Right, Natalie. So who decreed the name should be pronounced "dohj", as in "Doge of Venice"? Somebody decided to promote Dog E. from joke meme to "first magistrate of the Venetian Republic" ca. 1790. That's giving Elon far too much credit.
Further off topic, but I'd like to float the idea of impeaching Judas D Vance who kissed the DEI pope
too late, vance killed him
Timing is interesting to say the least.
Wondering that too. 🤔 😆😆😆😆😆🫠😩
I call DOGE Dab Of Glue Engineering, inspired by bumpers falling off
Cybertrucks.
I go with Destruction of Government Effectiveness.
I like Department of Government Erosion. I got that from a pastor who used it in the pulpit.
DOGE is a Russian asset.
I’ve been calling it dog-e, like doing America doggy style
good idea - did you also notice DOGE backwards is eGod
Hey now. Yesterday was 420, don't be dissing dope! 😉
I like that. Dirge is appropriate. I’m using it for now on.
I totally agree with Mr Krugman's assessment here. There's a nihilistic void at the base of Trump's mentality, vengeful for vengeance's sake which appears to captivate cult members. The "own the libs" rallying cry is an example. Own them, okay, then what?
For the hardcore cultists, there is no "then what"? Own the libs is the end game. Anything else is irrelevant to them. They're too simplistic to think beyond anything Faux Newspeak doesn't tell them to think.
Yes that’s correct. There’s a great story in the NYT about how the GOP was taken over by people who prefer to own the libs even if it means abandoning conservative aims.
Sounds like a pretty accurate description of what we're seeing from this regime. My initial impression was that "eternity" politics is about sending us all into eternity. They're doing a pretty damn good job of it.
It’s a great read. His ‘sadopopulism’ is more relevant today than it was at the time of publication. It’s also still Interesting to see the way he recognised Vladislav Surkov and his strategies in post Soviet democracy. Something that Adam Curtis picked up on very early also.
I agree Trump attracts people with the same "vengence for vengence sake." It's those people who are arguably *more* dangerous than Trump, because those people "make the trains run on time." IMO the most dangerous people in Trump's cult are actually much lesser known people like OMB Director Russell Vought, who's goal is to make federal employees not want to come to work. It's people like the DOGE "Dunning-Kruger Kid" who spent hours screaming at and berating federal employees.
As to your "Then what?" question, I don't think Trump knows. Elon, I believe, thinks he knows. His goal is to replace most of the functions of the federal government with AI. Given the tariff crap that came out of ChatGPT and Grok...let's just say I think we're probably years away from Skynet even if Elon doesn't know it. (Somebody *really* needs to make that Terminator: Tariff War movie Dr. Krugman suggested. 🤣)
I understand your frustration, but don't give up your sense of compassion. They're still human beings who have inherent worth, however misguided or even filled with rage they may be. This doesn't mean you have to coddle them, though.
While the ignoranti are victims of misinformation and propaganda from FOX, Newsmax, Breitbart, RT, and forty years of GOP smears, they are also perpetrators. It's not entirely unlike child molesters who were victims of child abuse when they were young. But yes, even Trumpists are human beings who don't deserve genocide. They deserve to find out they fucked up.
If the MAGA crowd weren't so anti-intellectual that they wouldn't think to learn French, another cry you could attribute to them would be "après nous, le deluge!"
I see them as being in part as the ugly denouement of the Fossil Fuel Age, and it makes sense that Trump's route to electoral victory ran through the Rust Belt. A region where most people live in sprawling suburbia necessitating a lot of driving, in homes that cost a lot of energy to keep warm in the region's frigid winters, and whose main industry is the manufacture of polluting cars, clearly has no future in a Net Zero world.
Another possibility is the migration of Southern whites around the country. Here’s the link to the National Bureau of Economic Research working paper exploring this idea. What’s surprising is the how the recent migrants change local culture instead of assimilating to it, which differs from Colin Woodard’s “American Nations”. In “American Nations” Woodard finds recent immigrants assimilate to the culture established by European immigration 300 years ago. It appears Southern and Appalachian whites have a special kind of obstinacy that wears down anyone else.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w29506
Sarah Taber disputed the view that migrating Southern whites somehow "infected" other parts of the US with white-supremacist ideas, and would likely claim that it's yet another attempt by wealthy reactionaries to frame the working class for Trumpism.
The old South was a zero-sum extractive economy where wealth and power rested on the ownership of land (and prior to the Civil War, slaves). It was a culture that saw little use in educating the masses as its economy rested on cheap labor rather than skilled labor, so poor people who fled the South mostly ended up working in similar extractive industries elsewhere, where the ruling elites were similarly reactionary.
And if an area was popular with _white_ Southern immigrants specifically, this was often because it was ALREADY a sundown town (or in Oregon's case, an entire sundown STATE).
I grew up in the South. Went to a Southern U for three years. Transferred to a Big Ten, which accepted me - but insisted I take all basic core classes over. Why? Because what was taught in Southern schools was tainted science, history, economics, social sciences, even the arts. In a my first history class at the new U, I learned the history of lynching - I'd heard of it, but like a distant bell. I was appalled to be part of such a society.
Taber also pointed out, IIRC, that the shift towards right-wing politics in places that Southerners migrated to was as much a reaction to them as an import by them - locals basically reacted to the sudden influx of dirt-poor working-class Southerners the same way people today react to an increase in visible homelessness, and lurched right as a result. (This is especially true because it was very rarely *just* white Southerners moving to extractive industry locations, so in addition to an influx of redneck workers you'd also often have an influx of black or immigrant workers, all of which were great for triggering the locals' "make it like it was before, when all the scary new people weren't there yet!" yearning).
> ... clearly has no future in a Net Zero world.
Eh. They can make it work. Studies show you can even make solar work in Alaska. If it isn't working, it is because you haven't installed enough panels. In the north, they might beed to be bifacial and tipped at an angle where the snow will slide off or mounted vertically, but there is a way. They get cheaper every day. A while ago someone decided to paint his house with them because they were cheaper than siding. They keep coming down. Few live above the arctic circle, and if we were smart we'd build better transmission grids so that solar in other timezones or hemisphere could power buildings here. The sun is always up somewhere.
The real problem isn't homes though but jobs: areas that are heavily dependent on climate-damaging sectors – coal, oil, gas, cars and (to a lesser extent) heavy industry more generally – usually find it extremely difficult to find greener means to earn a living.
It’s no different than a lynch mob. Individuals work themselves into a collective frenzy and end up doing things that they would never do on their own. Beware of large groups of people.
Well said.
Don't forget the Khmer Rouge, they singled out people who wore reading classes, for being literate!
I prefer to forget, but that's a truly chilling one.
"Above all, he clearly feels rage toward people who, he imagines, think they’re smarter or better than him."
That just about everyone, isn't it?
Not really, he somehow got elected.
If I were motivated by rage against people who think they are smarter than me, then got power, I think I would try extra hard not to do stupid things.
That is clearly intelligent thinking. It also assumes self awareness when doing stupid things. As of right now, the DOW is down 1265...is the cause of this drop aware?
The analogy to the Cultural Revolution is strikingly accurate. Following the “Great Leap Forward” which also failed, perhaps Trump can rebrand it as the Great Leap Backward concurrent with the Kakistocratic Plunge!
The Big Swirly?
Except for whatever reason Trump has charisma with his base, far more than Musk or any of the P2025 authors who are now in power demolishing government. Trump can veto their projects when it suits him. But he's a lazy solipsistic character, so he doesn't do that often. Then when he does lead a project like the tariffs he does it very badly. It's amazing this card condominium skyscraper hasn't collapsed yet from its shoddy construction. But in a few months it will fall apart catastrophically, taking most of the US economy with it. And the disinvestment in science and technology will take decades to recover from. I wonder if I will live long enough to see the recovery (I'm 60 and many family members lived to 90 in my tree, though my younger brother is dying of cancer, probably soon).
Great post -- thanks!
Part of their appeal, to be sure. Other part is the end of Jim Crow which required Feds having power over what states do to citizens within their borders and the rules that make people citizens and entitle them to vote for governments according to their interests. Some folks have nostalgia for “states’ rights” to ensure white power and patriarchal norms around reproduction (control over the bodies of women and the education of children) to perpetuate it. I find it difficult to have respectful debates with people who deny my right to exist, have rights, or express my interests. But I do believe that difficult conversations like this are necessary - between ordinary Gazans and ordinary Israelis, among between MAGA and civil rights groups - not so much to actually find “solutions” (yet) but to begin the process of recognizing the humanity of both sides.
Luddite that I am, I had no clue that one could block others, just because they disagree. Boo hiss!! Just keep posting!!
The damage done by the Cultural Revolution was ugly, deep, and lasting.
I'm concerned, like you Prof Krugman, that if a similar orgy of spite and vandalism gets going in the US the wreckage will last a long time. I also suspect that Chinese history and regional culture helped the Chinese recover much faster than US folks will manage to do.
We're watching what's going on in the US from the EU and are saddened and anxious for the welfare and safety of the people of the United States. We hope for the best but right now it doesn't look good over there.
You people had better fight like hell to turn this disaster around. Time is short.
Alas I don't think the Chinese had as much legal and industrial infrastructure to rebuild.
Why are we all not using the phrase "Radical Rigght Lunatics" as part of our fight back.
I know several Trump supporters. They're not lunatics. Most are ordinary people blinded by fear or greed. These are normal emotions which many of us tamp down through reason and compassion. But Trump's appeal is that he validates the worst part of ourselves. For many, that is irresistible. Calling them lunatics will not change their minds or pry away their support. Sadly, only when they face the harsh reality of Trump's disastrous policies will they begin to realize their mistake. At that time, we must welcome their conversion.
Yes. That's my assessment as well. However, I believe that effective propaganda is also a key factor.
I think peaceful protests will help those taken in by the propaganda question their beliefs and decisions. It's hard to miss a couple of hundred people along the sidewalk in front of the courthouse in a very MAGA town.
There’s no reason not to call them lunatics. It’s what they are. People who are only motivated by hate, fear and greed and who will believe any nonsense that serves to undergird their hate, fear, and greed are lunatics. No rational argumentation will ever change their minds. They are list causes.
Hopefully enough of them will "prodigal son" their way to voting in a Congress in 2026 that respects the rule of law maybe even impeachment. I for one am fattening a calf for them.
Oh, please, let's not go down the name-calling path, tempting though it is! I still can't get over the fact that DJT called the VP of the United States " a low IQ bitch" in public with no consequences. It would be a career-ender for anyone else.
That said, is there a DJT voodoo doll I can put pins in????
I like Radical Right Rioters better…
Trump is clearly incapable of a strategy, but I’m not as sure about the men behind him. In the time between when Trump first left office and his second term, there was ample opportunity for plans to be made on how best to overturn our country’s democracy and I believe we are witnessing the results.
“But as I said, Trump and his movement are driven by visceral urges, not strategy.”
"Trump is clearly incapable of a strategy" - true, but the real movers behind his "throne", the Russell Voughts and the Koch brothers and Putin, and a host of other shady figures DO have a strategy. All they have to do is to whisper sweet blandishments (with an emphasis on "bland") in DJT's ear to get him to move in the direction they choose. With a guy like him, that's like giving candy to a 5-year old.
And don't forget Curtis Yarvin.
Oh yeah, he's another one for sure.
I heard Koch is suing trump over tariffs.
What irony!
Koch's are conservative Christians but they're also businessmen. They see Trump is destroying the economy.
Agree.
Be sure to include Peter Thiel. He’s a huge part of the nihilism that courses through MAGA and is content to stay in the shadows where he can do his dirty work out of public scrutiny.
Yes, I quite agree. There are many such shadowy, mean-spirited figures pulling strings in the background, and all working together to destroy the US as it has been for the last 80 years, and pull the entire country by a ring thro' its' nose, and limbs in shackles, back to the 1890's when all was peachy for a few extremely rich people and the corporations and big landowners. All the rest were to be treated as serfs, whose only value was measured in how much demeaning, back-breaking work they could manage for a pittance in a 24-hour period.
They even documented it, titled "Project 2025". That will be key evidence when the time comes to convict their pathetic sorry butts.
His Easter message really turned my stomach. He is actively fomenting contempt against 1/2 the citizens he’s been tasked to lead.
You made me laugh! And given this subject, that isn't easy!!
The Cultural Revolution was an extraordinarily bloody period and horrifying period in Chinese history that resulted in the violent deaths of millions, families destroyed, cultural monuments obliterated, etc. As bad as Trump is, any comparison to that trauma is bound to seem almost insulting to Chinese who were effected by it. Trumpism is more like Putinism - a lot of radical talk tempered by greed, naked self-interest and incredible incompetence. Mao offered a coherent ideological vision to angry young people. Trump is still trying to be many things to many people. It’s hard to lead a revolution that’s good simultaneously for billionaires, suburban small businessmen, farmers and factory workers.
I agree. Also, unlike the Cultural Revolution the Trump “Revolution” wants to preserve, restore, and honor certain aspects of America’s past, including the traditional public architecture and art, family structure, etc.
J agree
Trump doesn't write those truth social posts. They are too grammatically correct to be his own writing. They'd probably all caps as well.
Donald Trump dictated his tweets and demanded capitals and exclamation marks, a former aide told his trial.
Madeleine Westerhout said Mr Trump preferred her to take notes rather than write himself. He would then edit them on paper and send.
"There are certain words he liked to capitalise... like 'country'," she said. "He liked exclamation points."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68987594
I have to say the hatred and phrases sound just like him -- he probably dictates them.
So who writes them?
Scribe in the Heritage Foundation
Musk?
Steven Cheung. His parents, or certainly his grandparents, grew up IN the cultural revolution. See the connection?
OTOH, they usually indulge in the German practice of capitalizing all the nouns. So maybe Stephen Miller?
The destructive and evil Cultural Revolution in China is a relevant model for understanding what’s going on in USA. As the MAGA, it was a violent part of a struggle for political power. But the MAGAs are also related to Khmer Rouge, the murderous movement ruling Cambodia. The Khmer Rouge ruled, tortured and killed until Viet Nam lost patience, rolled over them and stopped their mass murder of their own people in 1979.
Khmer Rouge best friend China punished Vietnam with an invasion from the north, chased out again easily by the much more experienced Vietnamese Army.
The Khmer Rouge were aggressive antiintellectuals, killing all Khmers assumed to have an education, wearing glasses, living in cities etc. During their short rule, they probably killed 2 million of their own people and infected the countryside with land mines. As the MAGAs, the Khmer Rouge recruited people with a revenge motive and gave them a «hang Mike Pence»- or Lock her up»-mission.
I worked and lived with my family in Hanoi at the time, responsible for the Norwegian development program in Vietnam. Khmer Rouge really made a lasting impression.
The motivation and the targets of MAGA and the Cultural Revolution are strikingly similar. So far, there is significant difference. MAGA has not yet turned into the mass mob violence of the Cultural Revolution.
When I was in grad school one of my housemates had come up through those days and was one of the early wave back to school when the schools re-opened. She recalled being a child and opening the eyelids of corpses in the street believing she would find someone alive and save their life.
The attacks on intellectuals are key for any fascist takeover. Intelligent, articulate people are the first target. Fascists don't mind the angry off the wall types, they can be rounded up later. What they can't abide are the good convincing arguments that stick in people's minds.
The worship of ignorance has its roots in fear that the intelligent must be out of kill the stupid. Which in itself is a bad conclusion. Trump’s easter
Sermon is certainly vile, and vindictive. It also has the seeds of a backfire seeing as he flies in the face of Christian attention to the holiday on the day of the passing of one of the most beloved Popes in history. Trump has become a whiner. That’s the very thing he insists is weak and deserving of being taken down. If that isn’t ignorance personified I am amazed.
There is basically no difference between what we see as the far left and far right in the world of politics. The reality is that both extremes want and exercise power in accordance to their ideology. The real issue is the conflict between ideology and the part of the world that looks to the scientific method to deal with problems and questions. Once you convince someone of an ideological position there is little one can do move them as they have the faith. In many ways I look at what is happening currently much like the conflict between religion and progress that played out during the Renaissance. During the Renaissance some were burned at the stake for introducing the use of the concept of zero. Zero was seen as spreading a concept created by the devil. Much of what we are seeing now is just a stupid. However it is dressed up in much more acceptable terms.
Ahhh the moronic horseshoe theory in the wild. One side wants absolute domination and genocide, the other wants economic and social freedom and a progressive society. Totally the same things. Mindless fucking centrists.