I live ten minutes from Harvard Square. Science and research fuel a huge chunk of our economy here. The ripple effects of these cuts are enormous. When is some reporter going to ask “Why do Republicans hate America?” I really want to know.
Anyone who feels that another person feels superior to them hates that other person. Feelings of people with high school diplomas that "I'm just as good as that college kid" have slowly turned into a desire to eliminate higher education. There's some evidence of a budding movement to eliminate all formal education.
It's hard for me to accuse others of jealousy, because I'm not immune. But if you needed one word to explain where all of the hatred is coming from, it would be jealousy. It's too bad. The ability to appreciate someone else's success is one of the joys of life. The inability is largely why we're here.
It is all rooted in grotesque inequality, and privilege banked up on one side of the population, the top 10%, which has mounted a sustained attack on public goods of all kinds, including public education. The gap, which is getting worse, breeds frustration and resentment.
"... breeds frustration and resentment." Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but specifying the "top 10%" is a little vague and all-inclusive. If you don't specify that it's Republicans responsible for these inequalities, I'm sensing that you (and the people you're referring to) are directing a large percentage of the blame at Democrats?
The resentment about inequalities should be directed at Republicans, who have consistently blocked or reversed legislation in recent decades to help the working class and the poor, and to improve public education. Democrats such as myself, including those in the top 10%, are more than happy to pay taxes that would help the common good and benefit the poor and middle class. This is largely why we're opposed to Republicans. This is largely why we support Democratic candidates, who by a large percentage are more likely to support social programs, education, healthcare, and other programs that help society as a whole, and that lead to equality.
At some point, to save our country (assuming we haven't already lost a legit voting system), the frustration and resentment about inequality will need to be directed at the people responsible for it -- the Republicans. Or we'll continue a downward spiral with Republicans winning the presidency, House, and Senate. And let me guess, as the inequality worsens, they'll try to blame Democrats. Again. And again. And again.
Gerard. I generally agree with you. But niggling in the back of my mind is why Democrats aren’t fighting harder and more publicly? I can’t help wondering if they have donors who don’t want them to shake up the status quo. I can’t help wondering if they are worried about being primaries and losing their jobs. Yes there are some brilliant elected Democrats who are doing the right things. But they seem to be a minority…..
Thanks for your response, Marge: "But niggling in the back of my mind is why Democrats aren’t fighting harder and more publicly? I can’t help wondering if they have donors who don’t want them to shake up the status quo.."
My short answer is, "No, that's not what's occurring." And secondly, "Not enough people are listening to them."
Longer answer: They did fight. Extremely hard. If they were worried about donors, they would've avoided criticizing Republicans throughout the campaign last year. They tried to win the presidential election. They tried winning the House and Senate. They warned people about what was about to happen. In my view, they screamed from the rooftops, but still lost the election. People didn't listen. This country isn't awake yet. It's going to get worse, and then it might wake up. I guess we'll find out.
Note: Some Democrats are Democrats In Name Only (DINOs), and are as entrenched in the corporate donor culture as the worst Republicans. Some are true Democrats but too conservative or "moderate" in their viewpoints to enact real progressive change. But it's a matter of degree. Repeat: It's a matter of degree. There is absolutely no comparison between these two parties. Right or wrong, they're going to wait for things to worsen. Right now, people are still too comfortable, and still not listening.
I'm going to largely agree with Marge here. Yes, Republicans are, with rare, if any, exceptions, corrupt and they are responsible for this nightmare that is Drumpf 2.0. BUT, too many Democrats are sitting on the sidelines or are stuck in a box with Republicans. It's a matter of degree? Yes, well everything is a matter of degree. Right now, we need that degree, like AOC and Bernie and Kamala (Where art thou?), to create a more progressive, outside-of-the-box revolutionary, innovative, explosive paradigm shift like Teddy Roosevelt's ushering in The New Deal! I could write a book on the intense healing thoughts and ideas overwhelming me as I read your posts. So much good can come from this! First things first, though. Oust the regime!
Oh well, so it's clear that I didn't misunderstand you. In my view, that's false. Let's start with Obama Care. I think we'll both agree that the fact that many people believe your statement is a big reason for Republicans winning elections. It's a narrative.
To be more specific the Dems allowed GOP/Plutocrat created inequality to hollow out the middle class over the last 40+ years without much Democratic opposition.
The two main vehicles of this inequality have been trickle-down-economics in the government sector and Shareholder Capitalism in the private sector.
As a result we have a diminished social safety net, and managements who feel free to screw everyone but their shareholders.
Gerard, agree but…In 2024 a big heavily promoted Democrat plank was to abolish student loan debts, ie, for the approx 34pc of Americans who go to college, a policy to be paid for partly out of the taxes of the 65pc of Americans who didn’t. I got cancelled by several Substack sites for the sin of pointing out how stupid this was for Democrats. And it feeds into the GOP narrative that the “elites” think they’re better than “us”. Their resentment might be unjustified but it’s not entirely unfounded.
one of the problems with student loans, though, was that their (private sector) administration was so corrupt that it was nearly impossible in practice to pay them off. People in public service jobs |(including teachers) who were - according to Congress - to be given favorable terms of repayment were prevented by bureaucratic excuses from taking advantage of these terms.
Michael Lewis has a segment of his podcast Against the Rules on this - done last fall, I think - very depressing, but it makes understandable why so many people thought that student loans should be forgiven. No doubt that inclination went too far, but honest and sensitive rather than grasping, even Dickensian, administration of the loans would have allowed a better remedial scheme.
I think it's rooted in more than just grotesque inequality. It's rooted in propaganda fanning the flames of envy and misdirecting it at educated people (who generally want to share the wealth of learning, and share the wealth in general) instead of at greedy people who want to stifle learning in order to grab more wealth.
The attack on public education goes back to the 1950's - 1960's with the march to the suburbs. The public schools left behind deteriorated while shiny new schools were being built in the suburbs. The trend continued over the years as ever more elite suburban enclaves came into being with even better schools. The result has been that the nominally public schools at the top of the heap are effectively private schools. You can't get in if you can't afford to buy in the school district. Those left behind understand this and are saying, "Wait a minute. If they have private schools we want them too. Give us vouchers."
We elect Democrats because they’re more responsible and want America to succeed. I’m not surprised to find these same people cannot set their heads on fire and become radical Democracy warriors overnight. This our problem to solve.
The nail in the coffin for Democrats was not listening to Bernie and attacking both income inequality and dark money. I think it was Clinton that set us off on the wrong path. We’re all guilty of taking the wrong road.
Jealousy arises when the underdog wants to be like the top dog but is prevented from that. Sort of "I wish I could've gone to college." What I'm talking about isn't jealousy. It's more "I wish they couldn't have gone to college."
I think we probably agree. What you describe is pretty malignant and ignorant. We might just have a different connotation of the word 'jealousy,' but I get your point.
I’ve encountered many Republicans who fit the category of religious nihilists over the past 45 years. They were predicting the end times in 1980 because of their interpretation of Revelations. They believed the rapture would come 40 years after Israel was re-established. Since that didn’t happen naturally, they’ve been working to make it happen.
BTW, if they hate science so much, they should walk the talk and give up all their modern technology which was made possible by science. This includes the devices that allow them access to social media where they amplify their nihilism.
Good question. My daughter asked me recently (rhetorically, I think) why people who have achieved success so often want to pull the ladder up behind themselves to keep others from following?
That one is simple. They believe it's a zero-sum game and they don't want the competition. Some of the following people might get them knocked down a rung or two.
and ... the folks at the bottom of the ladder, wanting up, are often of the wrong color, for those at the top of the ladder. One simply can't understand Republican welfare or social policies independent of race.
That's partially true. I also think that they would behave this way even if, hypothetically, there was only one race. Unbridled greed is the primary motivator.
It's also true that racism is one of the wedges they use to keep the bottom in our place.
There is no shortage of people who’d eat their own children if they thought it would bring them power and influence. Ted Cruz would eat all his nieces and nephews too.
They are sociopathic. You have to be on the sociopathic spectrum to be a right-winger. Unfortunately, sociopaths can fool Dems by mimicking empathy to be elected as Democrats.
Sadly, Jane, I think you're right. The whole elitist "I'm better than you because I have power over you." Trump and Republicans are all about getting power and keeping it. Dems don't win because they don't understand that you have to be in power to do things you want to do.
what pisses me off about the Democrats is that they are acting like the red coats during the revolutionary war, but we are in robotic warfare, at least at the moment sort of a Vietnam on steroids. In the interim lining up on the battlefield is not solving any problems. We need to get down and dirty and just plain ugly. Hit them where It will hurt them, and their wallet. But until Congress and the Senate can turn over where on this little cesspool of greed.
There's some Joe Six Pack populism here, but it's really just basic electoral politics. As in 50% of the GOP base are Evangelicals, who are generally hostile to science because of Creationism, and a general faith>logic mindset. Evangelicals are the single most powerful conservative voting bloc, which is why the GOP got Roe v. Wade sixed, and why they're now diverting more and more public school money to religious schools and home schooling parents.
Trump/GOP need to cut any and every form of federal spending to offset--at least partially--the massive tax cuts for billionaires and corporations they're desperate to pass this year. Most billionaires or CEO's don't give a shit about US long term prosperity; it's all about the tax cuts and stock buybacks that will juice their personal wealth next quarter. Research funding is money they prefer in their own pockets.
That is part of it, but a larger part is that they are being told that college is not important. "That not everyone needs to go to college." Why? People who have been to college tend not to vote for them. Pure and simple. There are a lot of very bright people from lower income communities not going to college, not because it can be affordable but because they have been convinced it isn't necessary. One of the great advantages of the US has always been how no one takes a test when they are young that determines their life. In the US, we have continually given the population the opportunity to do better. This is the great fear of the Republicans. There aren't enough super wealthy to win elections, they need help.
That too is part of it. Another part is the reality that not everyone is capable of handling college, and the Dems promoting the whole "meritocracy" thing. That combined with an ever diminishing non-degree-requiring job market, and all that's needed is a spark.
You have a point. Something have always wondered about. When Fox would do its fear-mongering threatening Christians. It struck me that these “Christians” didn’t seem to have much faith. It is the same thing. They don’t believe in themselves.
They call themselves "Christians" because they carry around a bible, many can quote chapter and verse, and might even go to church and give money to their millionaire preachers. Few of them have a clue what Christ himself actually preached. How many Christians know that Christ kept Kosher? More important, he required his followers to keep Kosher! And that's just for starters.
Indeed. This was Paul's big argument, not requiring conversion to Judaism in order to be Christian. From my reading, they (Paul and the remaining Disciples) had a big meeting (I forget the date): Couldn't agree, Decided to sit on it and come back to it later (classic committee behavior) ;-), the Revolt occurred, and they never got back to it. So Paul went ahead and did it anyway. ;-)
You are so right!! I think that they do have an inferiority complex and with Trump behind them, they can fuel that dislike of higher education in a public light. They can use “home schooling“, and “banning books on a religious basis“ to their arsenal also. It’s a really sad commentary on United States education. So many countries look to us for intelligence and great education, but not anymore!
The keyword being "feels". If they "feel" that another person "feels" superior, regardless of whether or not there's any veracity to that "feeling". Ironically, it's precisely that belief that makes them inferior beings in the first place. It's a character flaw.
Republicans would claim that they don't hate America, what are you talking about? However, they would also claim (or at least believe, even if they don't admit it) that you're not America. You're a city-living liberal, a citizen of the People's Republic of Cambridge. Not REAL America. REAL America is manly men in flannel, working on farms or possibly coal mines in the Midwest, with six blond children raised by their meek, dutiful womenfolk. Not you. So it's just fine to hate you, because that doesn't count as hating America.
The fact that over 70% of the US population lives in areas at least as urban as Somerville is completely lost on these people.
Now they mimic the Cultural Revolution. My 2005 guide in China had been sent by Mao with his elite family to live in a cave. I’m sure MAGA would like to do the same. Though there probably aren’t enough caves.
Part of the answer may be the fact that some may have believed the lies of Trump et al. Once a choice is made, it may be hard for people to admit their mistake and change their opinion. Fixation on fallacy leads to rigid adherence to belief
Isn't it much worse than this? Prof Krugman himself has called it a couple of times-
"I mean, what we’re seeing is what you’d expect if China and Russia had somehow managed to install people who wanted to sabotage America’s international position at the highest levels of the U.S. government."
Yes, although your location is precisely the type of place the right finds offensive because it's healthy, wealthy and has a very robust economy. Some likely believe all of the highly paid folks are being paid for directly by taxpayers. In general academic researchers are not getting rich off their salaries, of course, especially in a high cost location like Cambridge. The offshoot biotechs certainly do create plenty of wealth (and medicines that save lives).
Absolutely. Ironically, they also have it in for the so called "welfare queens" who live in many these very same places, who are anything but highly paid. Even more ironically, some of these very same haters are themselves, in fact, "welfare queens". Just take one look at Kentucky's and Mississippi's Medicaid enrollment numbers.
Money spent on furthering knowledge in all of the sciences is well spent.
These investments have made the US the world's leader in science and technology.
It is long past time to stop referring to MAGA as some small subset of Republicans and acknowledge that the entire GOP is fascist.
There is no minority of GOP that are trump chumps or Q-anon (Q-twits). It's the whole right-wing!
The right wing elites that hold power today know that people who understand what science is and how it works are immune from the propaganda they use to control the masses. It seems evident to me that they are destroying all of the agencies, departments, and services that we as a society have invested in for many decades to advance knowledge and quality of life for our citizens and the world, so they can reduce taxes for the ultra-rich even more. Klugman's point that science can't be monetized is not accurate; for example, drug research funded by the public are often patented and monetized by the researchers and the University forming a corporation to manufacturer and sell the drug. I believe medications derived from public funding should be at least partly owned by the government, and any profit should go into government coffers.
To answer this question, it's important to distinguish the two kinds of GOP. The first and most powerful kind are the Robber Barrons. They hate anything that interferes with them grabbing everything for themselves that there is to grab. They believe this is their right simply because they're in a position to grab it.
Then there's the other kind, the kind that hates liberal democracy, hates the idea of everyone being equal under the law, hates freedom of speech for anyone who's opinion isn't in lockstep - or should I say goosestep - with their beliefs, ditto freedom of the press, and anything that reminds them that they're idiots.
There's a book about that. It's called Hitler's Gift. Published in England in 2001 and still in print, I think. Tells about the huge number of scientists who got away from Hitler (and Mussolini) and pursued their work in the UK and USA. Along the way it gives the statistics on Nobel Prizes in science from the very beginning. In brief, Germany was waay ahead of the world before 1940, with the UK following, the USA hardly there at all. As everybody knows, the US is now way on top, and lotsa furriners on the list. BTW the US patent on the nuclear fission reactor is held by a Hungarian and an Italian- for the work they did under a football stadium in Chicago.
American science was rising fast in the 1930s before the emigres from Europe, but the situation was transformed by 1945 when US industrial production amounted to about half of total world production, thanks to bombers and all that. On top of that, the US made a deliberate decision to go all-in on science, having seen its importance in the war -- atomic energy was a big part of this, especially as the Cold War wound up. The investment in science education in particular redoubled in the "Sputnik crisis". On top of this, of course the US is a magnet for all kinds of immigrants, check the CEOs of major tech firms etc. As the Soviet threat (or imagined threat) faded, science funding leveled off. The China challenge really should be a "Sputnik crisis" moment for the US, so it's extraordinary that the MAGA (no longer Republican) cult (no longer party) is blind and nutty here... I think it's the most outstanding of all demonstrations of their blind nuttiness.
I remember the Cold War science-and-math push, and the Sputnik crisis. I was in elementary school. Suddenly the math changed. We had to learn "new math." Basically this amounted to explaining that there were other "bases" besides ten, and playing Wff n Proof. We were supposed to compete with the Russians, who were a vague menace out there somewhere.
Glad to hear that! The New Math song was a classic takeoff of how I thought that a lot of teachers who didn't understand the new stuff might teach it. (As I may have commented already, I learned the real thing behind all that stuff in freshman math (Mathematical Analysis I) in 1959-1960 before the pedagogical fad was thought of. It was GREAT. It was the first time I was taught a math course using actual logic and proofs (apart from Geometry, which was actually taught in those days like Euclid modernized).)
The research foundation laid in the US will take, once destroyed, a century to rebuild, if ever. How will scientists ever trust their employment again? Why not go to a country that funds research and appreciates it?
How can you say “take a century to rebuild” when others are amazed at how fast China has risen up thru the ranks?
We’ll get back on track just as soon as we get rid of Trump / Vance. We can rise every bit as fast as China and likely even faster.
Keep in mind China sends their best students here for education. We are not losing our best to China. No, they go to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Cornell, MIT, CalTech, GWU, Duke, University of Chicago, University of Colorado, NYU, University of Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Dartmouth, and a long, long list of more
It depends on how long the MAGA rule will last. Germany and Italy got rid of fascism by allied militär victory only. Spain and Portugal show that a conservative-fascist regime can last for 40-50 years (Franco, Salazar).
Fascism in WW2 was defeated after Truman dropped the second atomic bomb. Thankfully US has bombs 1000 times more powerful, because we might only get one chance to nuke the next CPAC meeting.
Exactly. And you also see another thing: The US should have five times more Nobel prizes than the UK, because it has five times their population. But the US doesn't. It has FEWER Nobel prizes than you would expect when looking at its population size.
It seems to me that this might be some sort of indictment for the US education system. All the more when you factor in the 35+% immigrants among the laureates, who went to school in some other country before continuing their career in the US.
Hey, did Leo Szilard pull up the freakin ladder? Did Enrico Fermi? News to me. I.e., just what did you mean by this? (Of course, Fermi in particular took his best grad students with him when he left Mussolini's country, and at least one of them won his own Nobel.)
Enrico Fermi's wife Laura was Jewish and they moved to America at the insistence of her family. Science was just the ticket that brought them to USA. Antisemitism was the driving force.
There are lots of immigrant laureates who did not exactly flee persecution.
Nonetheless we can leave that out altogether, because it distracts from the point I'm trying to make: It should be investigated whether the US education system generates fewer US-born-and-bred scientists than you would expect when comparing their number with those from other countries.
Honestly, being a research scientist is very far from being one of the most rewarded careers that a smart person can go into. People are comparing "scientist" to things like tech startup founder, physician with a lucrative specialty, corporate manager, "big law" lawyer, and hedge fund trader, and decide that it comes up short - and they're basically correct in their assessment, because research scientists get paid shit (for a graduate degree holder) for long hours of hard work. Many of our most talented and ambitious young people are all trying to "correct" market prices one second faster than the other guy instead of doing things that actually matter.
This is the reason US scientists are often immigrants - native-born Americans have better options, but given a choice between getting a Ph.D in the United States or staying in India or wherever other country they're originally from, they'd rather become an American scientist.
Agree! I think it’s Trump who is most afraid, but arouses anti-science in others. Much of this might be anti-elite rather than anti-science. Also, like ancient priests scientists are seen as have esoteric knowledge. KEE
Chinese R&D overtook the USA some years ago. Chinese automobiles are well ahead of the US. One can list other areas such as renewables, infrastructure or possibly AI. They've had decades of universities churning out bright engineers, scientists and mathematicians. And their universities are highly rated in the league tables.
China does not need to steal US intellectual property any more. But American complacency and arrogance will hand over power to the Chinese.
Son works in Detroit, in automotive. They are seriously worried - about automotive/China as well as Trump's disastrous move.
A good friend is the dean of a business school (outpost of a UK university) in China. He is under no illusions about the Chinese regime, but arguably China now has a more competitive, capitalist economy. The USA has bloated monopolies in many sectors. Maximising shareholder returns rather than investing in their businesses
"Maximising shareholder returns rather than investing in their businesses" -- I think that's a lot of it. MAGA wouldn't be like this if American business wasn't like this, & one reason business is like this is the overwhelming focus on "shareholder value" rather than old-fashioned profit-based dividends for publicly-traded firms.
Yes. He and St Reagan, hand in hand. Between his theory of capitalism and the Republicans trickle down, this started in the 1980's and we've been going downhill since then. Read "What Went Wrong" by George Tyler. It explains everything.
Several years ago I heard a statistic about how little business devoted to R&D compared to the 1950s. I assume it’s gotten worse not better since that report.
Read that years ago as well. So, we've known about it but just looked the other way. So CEOs could make big bucks while their companies slowly withered away instead of innovated.
As they used to be. But that was before blatant corruption became a "good thing." There's no party less objective about the value of a company stock than the managers of the company holding stock options.
In a nutshell. Would not be surprised to see Chinese overtake them in civil. Government defence funding does a lot to support US aerospace and always has.
Boeing was purchased by McDonell Douglas with Boeing's money. Boeing was run by airplane people. The executives from McD were businesspeople. They moved to Seattle and took over. After running McD into the ground they set about doing the same with Boeing. Shareholders were paramount in the business philosophy of both McD and the new Boeing. Yes. the dark pun was intended. From engineering to production, Boeing employees have suffered under mismanagement since 1997. OBTW blaming India is a page right out of the current government strategery manual.
You seem to think Chinese automobiles are light years ahead of ours. I submit, in the overall scheme of private transportation, they are a small percentage ahead of us. All cars are now very good; no one is way out in front. And it seems likely there will be endless leapfrogging of one over another as we forge ahead.
Now …. talk about bullet trains and I’d agree. We’re in the dumpster on that one. But it’s not the technology, it’s politics and awful planning. We could easily do much better but we prefer to squabble wasting time and money. Bad on us.
I was primarily referring to US automotive. Chinese are ahead, maybe not by a lot just now, but moving very fast. And the feedback comes from top level of a major US based manufacturer. Infrastructure Planning is certainly a problem (Europe, U.K.) but being able to build fast and at large scale has allowed China to develop its infrastructure technologies as well. I suspect aerospace may be next.
I think China still sucks at making internal combustion engine cars when compared to the long-established American, Japanese, and German car companies, but they got around that problem by becoming good at making electric cars instead...
Nobody cares about internal combustion engines for cars any more, It’s a dying technology. That there’s a $15k BYD car equivalent to a $60k tesla… and their volume is ramping faster. That’s a recipe for disaster, as their productivity will go up faster from the volume. We’ve been trying to goose EV production, but the Chinese have invested more. I blame Elon, he was supposed to get over there and steal their secrets!
China is eating our lunch in EVERYTHING- AND ARE MUCH SUPERIOR DESIGNERS, so Elon Dunce and the big 3 can go suck a dick. Also, most importantly, their superior technologies and manufacturing result in superior autos that are half the price of bullshit western designs. Automating in this country is DONE!
I hear your anger and frustration Michael. I get it.
BUT, life in a nation should not be based on who makes the bestest cars the fastest.
Or who wins some useless race in space. That’s shallow. We need the depth of what the values of life truly are. Freedom. Liberty. Fairness. Pursuit of happiness. And more. China comes up pretty low on that scale. America used to be at the pinnacle on that scale ….. until Trump.
You wanna be worried.?Worry about Republicans complete lack of courage to support and defend the constitution. That’s serious.
I'm an Industrial Designer and Architect, so ?I know wtf I'm talking about. Why don't you and all the other erudite academics actually do something instead of words, words, words. That reads as do nothing, do nothing, = don't know how to do something.
It was like we had Trump-lite with Johnson and Brexit, from which we are slowly recovering - after 9 years. Fortunately not so serious - our institutions survived and the rest of the world did not suffer much from it. It’s going to take America many years to recover, its institutions need to change to become much stronger … and the rest of the world is suffering the consequences.
Europe, Canada feel betrayed. Asia, Africa and others will shift allegiance to China. It’s going to be lonely for America.
Yeah, I can back you up. I had a tooling challenge in 2007. I searched all over the US for a vendor that could solve the problem and ultimately got a referral to China where the issue was resolved quickly and competently. Two side notes: the tool was needed for a DoD research contract and the project engineer at the Chinese firm was a Canadian who moved to China for the opportunity there.
China hasn't been churning out college grads that rapidly for that long. Maybe 30 years. Prior to then, college was only for the select. Amazing, though, how fast they have come in such a short time.
That’s long enough. The older ones have been working for 20-30 years. Backed up by carefully targeted R&D and investment. Wall Street is not that interested - as Rana Faroohar and others have written.
Yesterday a friend pointed out that autocracies thrive on ignorance and misinformation. Cutting funding of science and education accomplishes half of that. Intimidating media and spewing lies accomplishes the other half.
Hard sciences requires logical, reasoned thinking. It requires knowledge of math and statistics. Scientists are probably better than average at detecting bullshit.
I am always trying to tell MAGA people that they should be proud of the American top universities as they are the best in the world. But they are totally unimpressed. I don't understand this.
The rank and file MAGA only value what directly benefits them in the moment. If it accomplishes anything else, it’s “wasteful”. And of course, there’s a strange resentment against people who know things. I once politely corrected a MAGA relative’s rather obviously mistaken belief. Her response was “you think you’re so smart.” What she was really saying is “I resent you because I feel dumb”
From the History website. The Khmer Rouge was a brutal regime that ruled Cambodia, under the leadership of Marxist dictator Pol Pot, from 1975 to 1979. Pol Pot’s attempts to create a Cambodian “master race” through social engineering ultimately led to the deaths of more than 2 million people in the Southeast Asian country. Those killed were either executed as enemies of the regime, or died from starvation, disease or overwork. Historically, this period—as shown in the film The Killing Fields—has come to be known as the Cambodian Genocide.
I worked with a guy whose parents were missionaries, Methodist I think, who were in Cambodia at the start of those times. He and I saw The Killing Fields together. At several points, he would tell me his parents had seen or heard of something like the particular atrocity being depicted on the screen. He was quite affected by it, I don't think he understood how dangerous the country was until he saw it.
Eighty percent of Princeton students graduate with no debt. The really good colleges admit a great number of people who don't have rich parents. The large endowment and the generosity of alumni enable Princeton to do this.
That's great. Glad the offerings and opportunities have expanded to a larger pool though a very small pond. It's extremely competitive academically to get accepted to any top college. Even with straight A's and high SAT scores in HS. Because of their elite status many people rich, poor, middle class people don't make the grade due to poor public education, difficult life situations, or lack of motivation for higher achievement. But jealousy or angst about one's capacities is no reason to tear down institutions that serve the greater good by providing excellent learning environments, and programs for the public to attend as well.
Public universities need better funding for sure. A lot of good people teach at those institutions and there's no reason they could not be excellent, except for the under-funding problem. I used to take classes at the University of Houston and also at Rice University in Houston. The first is public and the second is private. The difference was astounding: U of H was overcrowded and had poor facilities in some cases. It was hard to even buy lunch in the student center sometimes because it was so crowded. Rice was deluxe everywhere.
They insist on ignorance because acknowledging truth and science requires them to take accountability for the mediocrity and failure in their own lives. These are people who don’t see the merits of phds nor understand the scientific process. They are so deeply insecure about their own failures that they have to harshly externalize the reasons for those failures — e.g., “they don’t know what they’re talking about,” they have often never traveled or experienced different cultures or other parts of the world in a genuine way but yet speak like they do. They have such a superficial perception and lack emotional depth because that is the only way they can convince themselves they are at this place in their life because of other people. How many maga friends do you know are genuinely happier since trump Got elected? I can think of none. That’s cause all their problems are on the personal level.
The ruination of Europe by the war made the US (and, to a lesser extent, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.) better for science.
The US government seemed to really learn to value science in WWII and even more when Sputnik shocked them. Science education in high school really got a boost after Sputnik.
It was more than just that, although the need for technology for weapons and communications was a big factor. Many academics and scientists fled under the Nazis, as well and I assume this is what Jared is referring to.
Exactly. The most direct example of this is the consequences of the Civil Service Law where German Jews literally were banned from virtually all of German academia
Many scientists and academics fled the Nazis since they discriminated and rounded up not only the Jews but all of those in political opposition.
Science is dominated by rational and logical thinking, and since there is, and was, no good rational reason for the Nazi's agenda and ideology, many of the "good and rational" scientists would likely have been opposed to it and saw the danger early on.
The same its true for the Trump admin and his agenda, since there is little rational basis for what he proposes on any level.
This is why he attacks not only scientists but universities where people have access to facts and knowledge.
Most experts and facts do not support his agenda, so his admin seems determined to attack them and also universities.
The GOP advocate for banning some books already and have begun trying to whitewash and rewrite history, as well. Things are disappearing from federal websites which is akin (in a sense) to "book burning" done by the Nazis.
Unlike GOP claims, universities do not "indoctrinate" students towards any single ideology. What they do is "inoculate" many students against nonsense, bull shit, and spin by giving them access to facts and knowledge and this is the real reason why the GOP hate them so much.
They hate them because educated people are more likely to know how to find the raw data and are more immunized against propaganda and this is a threat to a someone trying to use propaganda or who relies on lies.
Germany, prior to the year 1933, was the leader in science. It wasn't even all that close. You see this in the Nobel data. There is a reason why Germany dwarfs everyone else up until this year. Hitler became Chancellor January 30, 1933.
Once the Nazis gained full control, one of their first laws was the Civil Service Law. This, amongst other things, banned Jewish scientists from German universities. This meant these scientists had to leave. 11 current or future Nobel laureates left because of this. And this is just the direct impacts from a specific antisemitic law. This is not inclusive of the just general antisemitism of the Nazis which caused people like von Neumann and Wigner to leave and people like Fermi to take his Nobel to America.
As Rainer correctly points out, there is a reason why Hilbert's response to Nazi leadership when Hilbert was asked what it was like without the Jews that he said science doesn't exist anymore at Gottigen, which was up until the Civil Service Law the global leader in math and mathematical physics.
America was the largest ingester of these refugees. America, especially before the Civil Service Law, was very much a backwater country for science. We certainly had some good physicists of our own, but there is a reason why people like Oppenheimer had to go to Europe for an education. The Nazi's antisemitism is responsible for, either directly or indirectly, the overwhelming majority of American leaders of post-war science from von Neumann to von Klarman to Wigner and the rest (yes I recognize the irony of listing out three Martians).
Another important contributor was the Soviet Union. They had a pretty good education system for elite hard scientists. Many fled when they could and especially during the chaos of the USSR's collapse.
Lot of good people fled Iran too. Only fitfully welcome in the US.
Before retirement I led a research group at Berkeley that, among other things, figured out how to use neural networks (the core engine behind modern AI) for speech recognition. I was thinking about the great grad students and postdocs (many from other countries) that were key to this and how so much of our work was paid for with Federal money. And earlier in my career, I worked at a brain research lab whose advances were entirely funded by Federal dollars. In both cases we were just a small part of America's research efforts, but I think our model was a microcosm of the American technical research world. And all of it had bipartisan support in Congress.
I was visiting with my niece Grace, who is attending a conference on autism research and I said, “well at least your funding is safe”. Wrong! She is in graduate school and a grant that is supporting her might be pulled because it might be promoting research that is “woke”. One of the issues she is investigating is the effect of social stigmas surrounding autism (in books and society in general) on learning and socialization. WTF!? So we don’t want to help the disabled navigate a world that sees them as damaged goods. Incredible.
Sadly, I think so. This is the kind of thing that keeps me up at night. My garden is my therapy.
Oh and everyone, stay extra healthy this fall. Looks like vaccines may become a thing of the past. Hyperbolic I know, but the daily shitstorm from our government makes me wonder…
I was just reading a post by the Friendly Atheist reviewing data on Trump support by white evangelicals, which is at about 70%, much higher than other religious identity groups. You know, the people who think that evolution is Satanic, that the earth is 6000 years old and was formed in 7 actual days. If you think that believing everything told to you by authority figures is a virtue, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, you will be easy to fool. That is the definition of gullibility. I suspect that that is the cohort of Trump supporters most strongly opposed to support for science.
They don't understand that basic research is the engine that drives applied research. You'd think that would be enough, but, on the other hand, these morons don't value applied research either if that applied research doesn't conform to political ideas. Ignorance and stupidity, that's what this is.
The thing is applied research can indeed be monetized. But that all stops without basic research. They have to be made to understand. Research scientists, of which I am one, know that.
How can this excellent post be read by those who really do need to read it? I do climate research and we'll run out of funds soon. I feel seen by Professor Krugman's post but I am hoping it will be seen by people who really need to think about what has been done here.
From a researcher's perspective, the impacts of the Administration's use of NSF funding as a weapon against universities go beyond simply closing down funded projects that don't align with their limited thought processes. This morning we learned that, effective May 5, all new awards (and all new awards are frozen with no end in sight) will have an indirect cost rate of 15%. This will impact most universities (not just the R1 to R3 doctoral institutions) whose research administration is supported by indirect funding - they'll have to find more funding from other sources, and that means probably cutting administrative support as well as student support (it's all tied together).
This is putting Tяump's Ameяica in the lead for the race to the bottom.
"Either the United States will destroy ignorance or ignorance will destroy the United States." W.E.B. Dubois, 1905
I live ten minutes from Harvard Square. Science and research fuel a huge chunk of our economy here. The ripple effects of these cuts are enormous. When is some reporter going to ask “Why do Republicans hate America?” I really want to know.
Anyone who feels that another person feels superior to them hates that other person. Feelings of people with high school diplomas that "I'm just as good as that college kid" have slowly turned into a desire to eliminate higher education. There's some evidence of a budding movement to eliminate all formal education.
It's hard for me to accuse others of jealousy, because I'm not immune. But if you needed one word to explain where all of the hatred is coming from, it would be jealousy. It's too bad. The ability to appreciate someone else's success is one of the joys of life. The inability is largely why we're here.
It is all rooted in grotesque inequality, and privilege banked up on one side of the population, the top 10%, which has mounted a sustained attack on public goods of all kinds, including public education. The gap, which is getting worse, breeds frustration and resentment.
@David Perkins
"... breeds frustration and resentment." Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but specifying the "top 10%" is a little vague and all-inclusive. If you don't specify that it's Republicans responsible for these inequalities, I'm sensing that you (and the people you're referring to) are directing a large percentage of the blame at Democrats?
The resentment about inequalities should be directed at Republicans, who have consistently blocked or reversed legislation in recent decades to help the working class and the poor, and to improve public education. Democrats such as myself, including those in the top 10%, are more than happy to pay taxes that would help the common good and benefit the poor and middle class. This is largely why we're opposed to Republicans. This is largely why we support Democratic candidates, who by a large percentage are more likely to support social programs, education, healthcare, and other programs that help society as a whole, and that lead to equality.
At some point, to save our country (assuming we haven't already lost a legit voting system), the frustration and resentment about inequality will need to be directed at the people responsible for it -- the Republicans. Or we'll continue a downward spiral with Republicans winning the presidency, House, and Senate. And let me guess, as the inequality worsens, they'll try to blame Democrats. Again. And again. And again.
Gerard. I generally agree with you. But niggling in the back of my mind is why Democrats aren’t fighting harder and more publicly? I can’t help wondering if they have donors who don’t want them to shake up the status quo. I can’t help wondering if they are worried about being primaries and losing their jobs. Yes there are some brilliant elected Democrats who are doing the right things. But they seem to be a minority…..
Thanks for your response, Marge: "But niggling in the back of my mind is why Democrats aren’t fighting harder and more publicly? I can’t help wondering if they have donors who don’t want them to shake up the status quo.."
My short answer is, "No, that's not what's occurring." And secondly, "Not enough people are listening to them."
Longer answer: They did fight. Extremely hard. If they were worried about donors, they would've avoided criticizing Republicans throughout the campaign last year. They tried to win the presidential election. They tried winning the House and Senate. They warned people about what was about to happen. In my view, they screamed from the rooftops, but still lost the election. People didn't listen. This country isn't awake yet. It's going to get worse, and then it might wake up. I guess we'll find out.
Note: Some Democrats are Democrats In Name Only (DINOs), and are as entrenched in the corporate donor culture as the worst Republicans. Some are true Democrats but too conservative or "moderate" in their viewpoints to enact real progressive change. But it's a matter of degree. Repeat: It's a matter of degree. There is absolutely no comparison between these two parties. Right or wrong, they're going to wait for things to worsen. Right now, people are still too comfortable, and still not listening.
It’s hard to blame people who aren’t in power. Not that they won’t TRY.
I'm going to largely agree with Marge here. Yes, Republicans are, with rare, if any, exceptions, corrupt and they are responsible for this nightmare that is Drumpf 2.0. BUT, too many Democrats are sitting on the sidelines or are stuck in a box with Republicans. It's a matter of degree? Yes, well everything is a matter of degree. Right now, we need that degree, like AOC and Bernie and Kamala (Where art thou?), to create a more progressive, outside-of-the-box revolutionary, innovative, explosive paradigm shift like Teddy Roosevelt's ushering in The New Deal! I could write a book on the intense healing thoughts and ideas overwhelming me as I read your posts. So much good can come from this! First things first, though. Oust the regime!
You are aware that the Democrats have also abandoned the working class, and for a very long time, yes?
Oh well, so it's clear that I didn't misunderstand you. In my view, that's false. Let's start with Obama Care. I think we'll both agree that the fact that many people believe your statement is a big reason for Republicans winning elections. It's a narrative.
To be more specific the Dems allowed GOP/Plutocrat created inequality to hollow out the middle class over the last 40+ years without much Democratic opposition.
The two main vehicles of this inequality have been trickle-down-economics in the government sector and Shareholder Capitalism in the private sector.
As a result we have a diminished social safety net, and managements who feel free to screw everyone but their shareholders.
Gerard, agree but…In 2024 a big heavily promoted Democrat plank was to abolish student loan debts, ie, for the approx 34pc of Americans who go to college, a policy to be paid for partly out of the taxes of the 65pc of Americans who didn’t. I got cancelled by several Substack sites for the sin of pointing out how stupid this was for Democrats. And it feeds into the GOP narrative that the “elites” think they’re better than “us”. Their resentment might be unjustified but it’s not entirely unfounded.
one of the problems with student loans, though, was that their (private sector) administration was so corrupt that it was nearly impossible in practice to pay them off. People in public service jobs |(including teachers) who were - according to Congress - to be given favorable terms of repayment were prevented by bureaucratic excuses from taking advantage of these terms.
Michael Lewis has a segment of his podcast Against the Rules on this - done last fall, I think - very depressing, but it makes understandable why so many people thought that student loans should be forgiven. No doubt that inclination went too far, but honest and sensitive rather than grasping, even Dickensian, administration of the loans would have allowed a better remedial scheme.
Crock of crap that ignores IQ bell curve. A sales pitch of some kind.
I think it's rooted in more than just grotesque inequality. It's rooted in propaganda fanning the flames of envy and misdirecting it at educated people (who generally want to share the wealth of learning, and share the wealth in general) instead of at greedy people who want to stifle learning in order to grab more wealth.
You really believe that the educated generally want to “share the wealth”?
Unfortunately, many on the right are educated, and many on the left are educated, but
thinking clearly or with the common good in mind.
The attack on public education goes back to the 1950's - 1960's with the march to the suburbs. The public schools left behind deteriorated while shiny new schools were being built in the suburbs. The trend continued over the years as ever more elite suburban enclaves came into being with even better schools. The result has been that the nominally public schools at the top of the heap are effectively private schools. You can't get in if you can't afford to buy in the school district. Those left behind understand this and are saying, "Wait a minute. If they have private schools we want them too. Give us vouchers."
We elect Democrats because they’re more responsible and want America to succeed. I’m not surprised to find these same people cannot set their heads on fire and become radical Democracy warriors overnight. This our problem to solve.
The nail in the coffin for Democrats was not listening to Bernie and attacking both income inequality and dark money. I think it was Clinton that set us off on the wrong path. We’re all guilty of taking the wrong road.
Jealousy arises when the underdog wants to be like the top dog but is prevented from that. Sort of "I wish I could've gone to college." What I'm talking about isn't jealousy. It's more "I wish they couldn't have gone to college."
I think we probably agree. What you describe is pretty malignant and ignorant. We might just have a different connotation of the word 'jealousy,' but I get your point.
Shameless infomercial. Seen all over substack posted by different names. Reported.
Begone "brain fog" spam bot.
I’ve encountered many Republicans who fit the category of religious nihilists over the past 45 years. They were predicting the end times in 1980 because of their interpretation of Revelations. They believed the rapture would come 40 years after Israel was re-established. Since that didn’t happen naturally, they’ve been working to make it happen.
BTW, if they hate science so much, they should walk the talk and give up all their modern technology which was made possible by science. This includes the devices that allow them access to social media where they amplify their nihilism.
It's really comical how they keep getting it wrong, and still they don't get it.
So how do we explain the highly educated members of Congress who have benefited from all that's good about this country and seek to destroy it?
Good question. My daughter asked me recently (rhetorically, I think) why people who have achieved success so often want to pull the ladder up behind themselves to keep others from following?
That one is simple. They believe it's a zero-sum game and they don't want the competition. Some of the following people might get them knocked down a rung or two.
and ... the folks at the bottom of the ladder, wanting up, are often of the wrong color, for those at the top of the ladder. One simply can't understand Republican welfare or social policies independent of race.
That's partially true. I also think that they would behave this way even if, hypothetically, there was only one race. Unbridled greed is the primary motivator.
It's also true that racism is one of the wedges they use to keep the bottom in our place.
Unbridled greed? Because they're psychopaths.
There is no shortage of people who’d eat their own children if they thought it would bring them power and influence. Ted Cruz would eat all his nieces and nephews too.
Or at least vacation in Cancun while Texans are freezing to death.
they're willing brainwashees of ideological malarkey
💯🎯
thanks-i think
Yes. You think correctly.
They are sociopathic. You have to be on the sociopathic spectrum to be a right-winger. Unfortunately, sociopaths can fool Dems by mimicking empathy to be elected as Democrats.
In Putin’s Russia, the economy is a shrunken cake and everyone there is grabbing for what they can.
This will be America under the new GOP consensus.
Extraterrestrials. Come on, Saturday Night Live turned 50 and many US citizens still deny it.
I think they wanna go back to feudalism. If I only had a shoe to boil to make soup.
Sadly, Jane, I think you're right. The whole elitist "I'm better than you because I have power over you." Trump and Republicans are all about getting power and keeping it. Dems don't win because they don't understand that you have to be in power to do things you want to do.
what pisses me off about the Democrats is that they are acting like the red coats during the revolutionary war, but we are in robotic warfare, at least at the moment sort of a Vietnam on steroids. In the interim lining up on the battlefield is not solving any problems. We need to get down and dirty and just plain ugly. Hit them where It will hurt them, and their wallet. But until Congress and the Senate can turn over where on this little cesspool of greed.
There's some Joe Six Pack populism here, but it's really just basic electoral politics. As in 50% of the GOP base are Evangelicals, who are generally hostile to science because of Creationism, and a general faith>logic mindset. Evangelicals are the single most powerful conservative voting bloc, which is why the GOP got Roe v. Wade sixed, and why they're now diverting more and more public school money to religious schools and home schooling parents.
Trump/GOP need to cut any and every form of federal spending to offset--at least partially--the massive tax cuts for billionaires and corporations they're desperate to pass this year. Most billionaires or CEO's don't give a shit about US long term prosperity; it's all about the tax cuts and stock buybacks that will juice their personal wealth next quarter. Research funding is money they prefer in their own pockets.
Some of it is just not believing certain scientific points: the religious may not believe in evolution.
The oil companies mounted a highly successful campaign that convinced many people that CO2 induced global warming isn’t real.
I believe the oil companies have stopped but their campaign convinced huge numbers of people.
Then there’s bizarre ideas about medicine. Perhaps some people are more vulnerable (someone with an autistic child may believe RFK Jr’s nonsense.
They don't believe the evidence before their very eyes. They don't believe in facts. They do believe in "alternative facts" however.
That is part of it, but a larger part is that they are being told that college is not important. "That not everyone needs to go to college." Why? People who have been to college tend not to vote for them. Pure and simple. There are a lot of very bright people from lower income communities not going to college, not because it can be affordable but because they have been convinced it isn't necessary. One of the great advantages of the US has always been how no one takes a test when they are young that determines their life. In the US, we have continually given the population the opportunity to do better. This is the great fear of the Republicans. There aren't enough super wealthy to win elections, they need help.
That too is part of it. Another part is the reality that not everyone is capable of handling college, and the Dems promoting the whole "meritocracy" thing. That combined with an ever diminishing non-degree-requiring job market, and all that's needed is a spark.
You have a point. Something have always wondered about. When Fox would do its fear-mongering threatening Christians. It struck me that these “Christians” didn’t seem to have much faith. It is the same thing. They don’t believe in themselves.
They call themselves "Christians" because they carry around a bible, many can quote chapter and verse, and might even go to church and give money to their millionaire preachers. Few of them have a clue what Christ himself actually preached. How many Christians know that Christ kept Kosher? More important, he required his followers to keep Kosher! And that's just for starters.
Indeed. This was Paul's big argument, not requiring conversion to Judaism in order to be Christian. From my reading, they (Paul and the remaining Disciples) had a big meeting (I forget the date): Couldn't agree, Decided to sit on it and come back to it later (classic committee behavior) ;-), the Revolt occurred, and they never got back to it. So Paul went ahead and did it anyway. ;-)
Except religious education
You are so right!! I think that they do have an inferiority complex and with Trump behind them, they can fuel that dislike of higher education in a public light. They can use “home schooling“, and “banning books on a religious basis“ to their arsenal also. It’s a really sad commentary on United States education. So many countries look to us for intelligence and great education, but not anymore!
The keyword being "feels". If they "feel" that another person "feels" superior, regardless of whether or not there's any veracity to that "feeling". Ironically, it's precisely that belief that makes them inferior beings in the first place. It's a character flaw.
Republicans would claim that they don't hate America, what are you talking about? However, they would also claim (or at least believe, even if they don't admit it) that you're not America. You're a city-living liberal, a citizen of the People's Republic of Cambridge. Not REAL America. REAL America is manly men in flannel, working on farms or possibly coal mines in the Midwest, with six blond children raised by their meek, dutiful womenfolk. Not you. So it's just fine to hate you, because that doesn't count as hating America.
The fact that over 70% of the US population lives in areas at least as urban as Somerville is completely lost on these people.
The “elites” 😆
The "elites" is you and me. If someone in your family has a college degree, you're elite enough for MAGA to scapegoat.
https://siderea.dreamwidth.org/1865048.html
Oh yes! But I find it hysterical. I am not one that anyone with a working brain would consider elite 😉
And to think that the Republicans hated the Commies back in the 1980's-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
Now they mimic the Cultural Revolution. My 2005 guide in China had been sent by Mao with his elite family to live in a cave. I’m sure MAGA would like to do the same. Though there probably aren’t enough caves.
Now the cave is the "third-world shit-hole country" Traitor is creating for us.
It's an astounding turnabout, isn't it?
Actually, they hate much (most?) of the American population.
Part of the answer may be the fact that some may have believed the lies of Trump et al. Once a choice is made, it may be hard for people to admit their mistake and change their opinion. Fixation on fallacy leads to rigid adherence to belief
Isn't it much worse than this? Prof Krugman himself has called it a couple of times-
"I mean, what we’re seeing is what you’d expect if China and Russia had somehow managed to install people who wanted to sabotage America’s international position at the highest levels of the U.S. government."
https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/sabotaging-the-pax-americana
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/22/opinion/donald-trump-the-siberian-candidate.html
Cough - #Krasnov - Cough...
Yes! We need to change the narrative!
Yes, although your location is precisely the type of place the right finds offensive because it's healthy, wealthy and has a very robust economy. Some likely believe all of the highly paid folks are being paid for directly by taxpayers. In general academic researchers are not getting rich off their salaries, of course, especially in a high cost location like Cambridge. The offshoot biotechs certainly do create plenty of wealth (and medicines that save lives).
Absolutely. Ironically, they also have it in for the so called "welfare queens" who live in many these very same places, who are anything but highly paid. Even more ironically, some of these very same haters are themselves, in fact, "welfare queens". Just take one look at Kentucky's and Mississippi's Medicaid enrollment numbers.
KY has a disability (receiving SSDI) of 16% vs. liberal NJ at 8%, so indeed many conservative places do in fact have lots of folks living off the gov't teet. https://www.mathematica.org/dataviz/state-disability-maps
Money spent on furthering knowledge in all of the sciences is well spent.
These investments have made the US the world's leader in science and technology.
It is long past time to stop referring to MAGA as some small subset of Republicans and acknowledge that the entire GOP is fascist.
There is no minority of GOP that are trump chumps or Q-anon (Q-twits). It's the whole right-wing!
The right wing elites that hold power today know that people who understand what science is and how it works are immune from the propaganda they use to control the masses. It seems evident to me that they are destroying all of the agencies, departments, and services that we as a society have invested in for many decades to advance knowledge and quality of life for our citizens and the world, so they can reduce taxes for the ultra-rich even more. Klugman's point that science can't be monetized is not accurate; for example, drug research funded by the public are often patented and monetized by the researchers and the University forming a corporation to manufacturer and sell the drug. I believe medications derived from public funding should be at least partly owned by the government, and any profit should go into government coffers.
To answer this question, it's important to distinguish the two kinds of GOP. The first and most powerful kind are the Robber Barrons. They hate anything that interferes with them grabbing everything for themselves that there is to grab. They believe this is their right simply because they're in a position to grab it.
Then there's the other kind, the kind that hates liberal democracy, hates the idea of everyone being equal under the law, hates freedom of speech for anyone who's opinion isn't in lockstep - or should I say goosestep - with their beliefs, ditto freedom of the press, and anything that reminds them that they're idiots.
How many science graduates in the White House press corps? Probably not many.
Perhaps because your ancestors didn't own slaves?
I wonder how many naturalized Americans there are among those Americans with Nobel prizes? And imagine how it will look in 10-20 years..
There's a book about that. It's called Hitler's Gift. Published in England in 2001 and still in print, I think. Tells about the huge number of scientists who got away from Hitler (and Mussolini) and pursued their work in the UK and USA. Along the way it gives the statistics on Nobel Prizes in science from the very beginning. In brief, Germany was waay ahead of the world before 1940, with the UK following, the USA hardly there at all. As everybody knows, the US is now way on top, and lotsa furriners on the list. BTW the US patent on the nuclear fission reactor is held by a Hungarian and an Italian- for the work they did under a football stadium in Chicago.
American science was rising fast in the 1930s before the emigres from Europe, but the situation was transformed by 1945 when US industrial production amounted to about half of total world production, thanks to bombers and all that. On top of that, the US made a deliberate decision to go all-in on science, having seen its importance in the war -- atomic energy was a big part of this, especially as the Cold War wound up. The investment in science education in particular redoubled in the "Sputnik crisis". On top of this, of course the US is a magnet for all kinds of immigrants, check the CEOs of major tech firms etc. As the Soviet threat (or imagined threat) faded, science funding leveled off. The China challenge really should be a "Sputnik crisis" moment for the US, so it's extraordinary that the MAGA (no longer Republican) cult (no longer party) is blind and nutty here... I think it's the most outstanding of all demonstrations of their blind nuttiness.
“On top of this, of course the US is a magnet for all kinds of immigrants”
Sadly, we need to change this to was a magnet now.
I remember the Cold War science-and-math push, and the Sputnik crisis. I was in elementary school. Suddenly the math changed. We had to learn "new math." Basically this amounted to explaining that there were other "bases" besides ten, and playing Wff n Proof. We were supposed to compete with the Russians, who were a vague menace out there somewhere.
Tom Lehrer had a few things to say about the New Math of the 1960s.
https://youtu.be/W6OaYPVueW4?si=cRhq5x50KItZwWHD
He is hilarious. And still alive at 97, according to Wikipedia.
Glad to hear that! The New Math song was a classic takeoff of how I thought that a lot of teachers who didn't understand the new stuff might teach it. (As I may have commented already, I learned the real thing behind all that stuff in freshman math (Mathematical Analysis I) in 1959-1960 before the pedagogical fad was thought of. It was GREAT. It was the first time I was taught a math course using actual logic and proofs (apart from Geometry, which was actually taught in those days like Euclid modernized).)
It's valuable to hear from a proper contrarian.
Abundance plan: use China as a foil to show us where we must invest. Then invest in more.
Was on top. America’s elite scientists are packing their bags as we speak, if they haven’t left already.
The work done was under a university football stadium
I prefer to imagine we’re going to put a stop to this madness so that in 10 years all will look fine.
Let’s cause that to happen. Kick back.
The research foundation laid in the US will take, once destroyed, a century to rebuild, if ever. How will scientists ever trust their employment again? Why not go to a country that funds research and appreciates it?
I hear other countries are busily recruiting our scientists. Including Russia.
And Canada.
How can you say “take a century to rebuild” when others are amazed at how fast China has risen up thru the ranks?
We’ll get back on track just as soon as we get rid of Trump / Vance. We can rise every bit as fast as China and likely even faster.
Keep in mind China sends their best students here for education. We are not losing our best to China. No, they go to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Cornell, MIT, CalTech, GWU, Duke, University of Chicago, University of Colorado, NYU, University of Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Dartmouth, and a long, long list of more
Don’t give up the ship!”
It depends on how long the MAGA rule will last. Germany and Italy got rid of fascism by allied militär victory only. Spain and Portugal show that a conservative-fascist regime can last for 40-50 years (Franco, Salazar).
Fascism in WW2 was defeated after Truman dropped the second atomic bomb. Thankfully US has bombs 1000 times more powerful, because we might only get one chance to nuke the next CPAC meeting.
But don't kick back and relax!
Too late
Exactly. And you also see another thing: The US should have five times more Nobel prizes than the UK, because it has five times their population. But the US doesn't. It has FEWER Nobel prizes than you would expect when looking at its population size.
It seems to me that this might be some sort of indictment for the US education system. All the more when you factor in the 35+% immigrants among the laureates, who went to school in some other country before continuing their career in the US.
Britain won a lot of Nobels before 1945, the US very few. If you revise your statistics for the modern period you might change your mind.
Hey, did Leo Szilard pull up the freakin ladder? Did Enrico Fermi? News to me. I.e., just what did you mean by this? (Of course, Fermi in particular took his best grad students with him when he left Mussolini's country, and at least one of them won his own Nobel.)
Enrico Fermi's wife Laura was Jewish and they moved to America at the insistence of her family. Science was just the ticket that brought them to USA. Antisemitism was the driving force.
There are lots of immigrant laureates who did not exactly flee persecution.
Nonetheless we can leave that out altogether, because it distracts from the point I'm trying to make: It should be investigated whether the US education system generates fewer US-born-and-bred scientists than you would expect when comparing their number with those from other countries.
Honestly, being a research scientist is very far from being one of the most rewarded careers that a smart person can go into. People are comparing "scientist" to things like tech startup founder, physician with a lucrative specialty, corporate manager, "big law" lawyer, and hedge fund trader, and decide that it comes up short - and they're basically correct in their assessment, because research scientists get paid shit (for a graduate degree holder) for long hours of hard work. Many of our most talented and ambitious young people are all trying to "correct" market prices one second faster than the other guy instead of doing things that actually matter.
This is the reason US scientists are often immigrants - native-born Americans have better options, but given a choice between getting a Ph.D in the United States or staying in India or wherever other country they're originally from, they'd rather become an American scientist.
if we dont know the exact answer... i think we all got a pretty good guess.
Agree! I think it’s Trump who is most afraid, but arouses anti-science in others. Much of this might be anti-elite rather than anti-science. Also, like ancient priests scientists are seen as have esoteric knowledge. KEE
Is Einstein counted?
I'll be dead by then, most likely. I can't imagine
Chinese R&D overtook the USA some years ago. Chinese automobiles are well ahead of the US. One can list other areas such as renewables, infrastructure or possibly AI. They've had decades of universities churning out bright engineers, scientists and mathematicians. And their universities are highly rated in the league tables.
China does not need to steal US intellectual property any more. But American complacency and arrogance will hand over power to the Chinese.
And no Im not a Chinese bot!
Son works in Detroit, in automotive. They are seriously worried - about automotive/China as well as Trump's disastrous move.
A good friend is the dean of a business school (outpost of a UK university) in China. He is under no illusions about the Chinese regime, but arguably China now has a more competitive, capitalist economy. The USA has bloated monopolies in many sectors. Maximising shareholder returns rather than investing in their businesses
"Maximising shareholder returns rather than investing in their businesses" -- I think that's a lot of it. MAGA wouldn't be like this if American business wasn't like this, & one reason business is like this is the overwhelming focus on "shareholder value" rather than old-fashioned profit-based dividends for publicly-traded firms.
So... in a way Milton Freidman gave birth to MAGA.
Yes. He and St Reagan, hand in hand. Between his theory of capitalism and the Republicans trickle down, this started in the 1980's and we've been going downhill since then. Read "What Went Wrong" by George Tyler. It explains everything.
Fantastic comment. Though, you can safely remove the qualifier, "in a way..."
Several years ago I heard a statistic about how little business devoted to R&D compared to the 1950s. I assume it’s gotten worse not better since that report.
Read that years ago as well. So, we've known about it but just looked the other way. So CEOs could make big bucks while their companies slowly withered away instead of innovated.
Share buybacks are the new R&D.
They should be outlawed.
As they used to be. But that was before blatant corruption became a "good thing." There's no party less objective about the value of a company stock than the managers of the company holding stock options.
UK not very different. Europe not quite so bad.
Boeing
In a nutshell. Would not be surprised to see Chinese overtake them in civil. Government defence funding does a lot to support US aerospace and always has.
Boeing was purchased by McDonell Douglas with Boeing's money. Boeing was run by airplane people. The executives from McD were businesspeople. They moved to Seattle and took over. After running McD into the ground they set about doing the same with Boeing. Shareholders were paramount in the business philosophy of both McD and the new Boeing. Yes. the dark pun was intended. From engineering to production, Boeing employees have suffered under mismanagement since 1997. OBTW blaming India is a page right out of the current government strategery manual.
You seem to think Chinese automobiles are light years ahead of ours. I submit, in the overall scheme of private transportation, they are a small percentage ahead of us. All cars are now very good; no one is way out in front. And it seems likely there will be endless leapfrogging of one over another as we forge ahead.
Now …. talk about bullet trains and I’d agree. We’re in the dumpster on that one. But it’s not the technology, it’s politics and awful planning. We could easily do much better but we prefer to squabble wasting time and money. Bad on us.
I was primarily referring to US automotive. Chinese are ahead, maybe not by a lot just now, but moving very fast. And the feedback comes from top level of a major US based manufacturer. Infrastructure Planning is certainly a problem (Europe, U.K.) but being able to build fast and at large scale has allowed China to develop its infrastructure technologies as well. I suspect aerospace may be next.
I think China still sucks at making internal combustion engine cars when compared to the long-established American, Japanese, and German car companies, but they got around that problem by becoming good at making electric cars instead...
Nobody cares about internal combustion engines for cars any more, It’s a dying technology. That there’s a $15k BYD car equivalent to a $60k tesla… and their volume is ramping faster. That’s a recipe for disaster, as their productivity will go up faster from the volume. We’ve been trying to goose EV production, but the Chinese have invested more. I blame Elon, he was supposed to get over there and steal their secrets!
China is eating our lunch in EVERYTHING- AND ARE MUCH SUPERIOR DESIGNERS, so Elon Dunce and the big 3 can go suck a dick. Also, most importantly, their superior technologies and manufacturing result in superior autos that are half the price of bullshit western designs. Automating in this country is DONE!
I hear your anger and frustration Michael. I get it.
BUT, life in a nation should not be based on who makes the bestest cars the fastest.
Or who wins some useless race in space. That’s shallow. We need the depth of what the values of life truly are. Freedom. Liberty. Fairness. Pursuit of happiness. And more. China comes up pretty low on that scale. America used to be at the pinnacle on that scale ….. until Trump.
You wanna be worried.?Worry about Republicans complete lack of courage to support and defend the constitution. That’s serious.
I'm an Industrial Designer and Architect, so ?I know wtf I'm talking about. Why don't you and all the other erudite academics actually do something instead of words, words, words. That reads as do nothing, do nothing, = don't know how to do something.
Bill McKibben: China will win the future, America will have a few coal mines.
(Kinda like district 12)
But they’ll be tremendous mines. The bigliest. Everyone tells the Orange one that’s where they want to work!
‘Bigliest’, definitely! Apparently the brits have their flavor of brexit/magotry now. ‘Make empire great again’
It was like we had Trump-lite with Johnson and Brexit, from which we are slowly recovering - after 9 years. Fortunately not so serious - our institutions survived and the rest of the world did not suffer much from it. It’s going to take America many years to recover, its institutions need to change to become much stronger … and the rest of the world is suffering the consequences.
Europe, Canada feel betrayed. Asia, Africa and others will shift allegiance to China. It’s going to be lonely for America.
Somehow the firestarter and turncoat Nigel Farage is missing there besides Johnson in the Hall of Shame.
Yeah, I can back you up. I had a tooling challenge in 2007. I searched all over the US for a vendor that could solve the problem and ultimately got a referral to China where the issue was resolved quickly and competently. Two side notes: the tool was needed for a DoD research contract and the project engineer at the Chinese firm was a Canadian who moved to China for the opportunity there.
China hasn't been churning out college grads that rapidly for that long. Maybe 30 years. Prior to then, college was only for the select. Amazing, though, how fast they have come in such a short time.
That’s long enough. The older ones have been working for 20-30 years. Backed up by carefully targeted R&D and investment. Wall Street is not that interested - as Rana Faroohar and others have written.
In essence, verifying what I noted in another post. Thanks
Yesterday a friend pointed out that autocracies thrive on ignorance and misinformation. Cutting funding of science and education accomplishes half of that. Intimidating media and spewing lies accomplishes the other half.
AKA religion
That explains cutting funding to social sciences. Not sciences that create most technology. Look at China's research for an example.
True. Sounds like they are ignorant about what best will keep us ignorant then?
Hard sciences requires logical, reasoned thinking. It requires knowledge of math and statistics. Scientists are probably better than average at detecting bullshit.
I am always trying to tell MAGA people that they should be proud of the American top universities as they are the best in the world. But they are totally unimpressed. I don't understand this.
The rank and file MAGA only value what directly benefits them in the moment. If it accomplishes anything else, it’s “wasteful”. And of course, there’s a strange resentment against people who know things. I once politely corrected a MAGA relative’s rather obviously mistaken belief. Her response was “you think you’re so smart.” What she was really saying is “I resent you because I feel dumb”
Pol Pot killed Cambodians with eyglasses, assuming they were smart.
Really, there's no answer. We have to find a way to protect ourselves from these people.
From the History website. The Khmer Rouge was a brutal regime that ruled Cambodia, under the leadership of Marxist dictator Pol Pot, from 1975 to 1979. Pol Pot’s attempts to create a Cambodian “master race” through social engineering ultimately led to the deaths of more than 2 million people in the Southeast Asian country. Those killed were either executed as enemies of the regime, or died from starvation, disease or overwork. Historically, this period—as shown in the film The Killing Fields—has come to be known as the Cambodian Genocide.
I worked with a guy whose parents were missionaries, Methodist I think, who were in Cambodia at the start of those times. He and I saw The Killing Fields together. At several points, he would tell me his parents had seen or heard of something like the particular atrocity being depicted on the screen. He was quite affected by it, I don't think he understood how dangerous the country was until he saw it.
because they don't have the wherewithal to attend. Either no rich daddy or an antipathy to education because lots of these pinheads are dropouts.
Eighty percent of Princeton students graduate with no debt. The really good colleges admit a great number of people who don't have rich parents. The large endowment and the generosity of alumni enable Princeton to do this.
That's great. Glad the offerings and opportunities have expanded to a larger pool though a very small pond. It's extremely competitive academically to get accepted to any top college. Even with straight A's and high SAT scores in HS. Because of their elite status many people rich, poor, middle class people don't make the grade due to poor public education, difficult life situations, or lack of motivation for higher achievement. But jealousy or angst about one's capacities is no reason to tear down institutions that serve the greater good by providing excellent learning environments, and programs for the public to attend as well.
Public universities need better funding for sure. A lot of good people teach at those institutions and there's no reason they could not be excellent, except for the under-funding problem. I used to take classes at the University of Houston and also at Rice University in Houston. The first is public and the second is private. The difference was astounding: U of H was overcrowded and had poor facilities in some cases. It was hard to even buy lunch in the student center sometimes because it was so crowded. Rice was deluxe everywhere.
It's called Ignorance.
They insist on ignorance because acknowledging truth and science requires them to take accountability for the mediocrity and failure in their own lives. These are people who don’t see the merits of phds nor understand the scientific process. They are so deeply insecure about their own failures that they have to harshly externalize the reasons for those failures — e.g., “they don’t know what they’re talking about,” they have often never traveled or experienced different cultures or other parts of the world in a genuine way but yet speak like they do. They have such a superficial perception and lack emotional depth because that is the only way they can convince themselves they are at this place in their life because of other people. How many maga friends do you know are genuinely happier since trump Got elected? I can think of none. That’s cause all their problems are on the personal level.
And besides all that, these willfully ignorant people don't want to be smart, they're dumb as the day is long.
This state of dominance in the Nobel didn't and doesn't happen by accident.
Yes. The Nazi’s discrimination. That’s the explanation for the chart looking like this. Lessons to keep in mind
That was important, for sure.
The ruination of Europe by the war made the US (and, to a lesser extent, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.) better for science.
The US government seemed to really learn to value science in WWII and even more when Sputnik shocked them. Science education in high school really got a boost after Sputnik.
It was more than just that, although the need for technology for weapons and communications was a big factor. Many academics and scientists fled under the Nazis, as well and I assume this is what Jared is referring to.
Exactly. The most direct example of this is the consequences of the Civil Service Law where German Jews literally were banned from virtually all of German academia
Yes. There's this truly heartbreaking exchange in 1934 between Nazi Education Secretary Bernhard Rust, and famed German mathematician David Hilbert.
Rust: "Isn't the mathematics faculty in Göttingen much nicer now, after the jews were expelled?"
Hilbert: "Nicer? The mathematics faculty in Göttingen doesn't exist anymore!"
And that, exactly, is the reason that you see in the diagram that Germany's slope was dramatically reduced after 1933.
Feel free to elaborate.
Many scientists and academics fled the Nazis since they discriminated and rounded up not only the Jews but all of those in political opposition.
Science is dominated by rational and logical thinking, and since there is, and was, no good rational reason for the Nazi's agenda and ideology, many of the "good and rational" scientists would likely have been opposed to it and saw the danger early on.
The same its true for the Trump admin and his agenda, since there is little rational basis for what he proposes on any level.
This is why he attacks not only scientists but universities where people have access to facts and knowledge.
Most experts and facts do not support his agenda, so his admin seems determined to attack them and also universities.
The GOP advocate for banning some books already and have begun trying to whitewash and rewrite history, as well. Things are disappearing from federal websites which is akin (in a sense) to "book burning" done by the Nazis.
Unlike GOP claims, universities do not "indoctrinate" students towards any single ideology. What they do is "inoculate" many students against nonsense, bull shit, and spin by giving them access to facts and knowledge and this is the real reason why the GOP hate them so much.
They hate them because educated people are more likely to know how to find the raw data and are more immunized against propaganda and this is a threat to a someone trying to use propaganda or who relies on lies.
Germany, prior to the year 1933, was the leader in science. It wasn't even all that close. You see this in the Nobel data. There is a reason why Germany dwarfs everyone else up until this year. Hitler became Chancellor January 30, 1933.
Once the Nazis gained full control, one of their first laws was the Civil Service Law. This, amongst other things, banned Jewish scientists from German universities. This meant these scientists had to leave. 11 current or future Nobel laureates left because of this. And this is just the direct impacts from a specific antisemitic law. This is not inclusive of the just general antisemitism of the Nazis which caused people like von Neumann and Wigner to leave and people like Fermi to take his Nobel to America.
As Rainer correctly points out, there is a reason why Hilbert's response to Nazi leadership when Hilbert was asked what it was like without the Jews that he said science doesn't exist anymore at Gottigen, which was up until the Civil Service Law the global leader in math and mathematical physics.
America was the largest ingester of these refugees. America, especially before the Civil Service Law, was very much a backwater country for science. We certainly had some good physicists of our own, but there is a reason why people like Oppenheimer had to go to Europe for an education. The Nazi's antisemitism is responsible for, either directly or indirectly, the overwhelming majority of American leaders of post-war science from von Neumann to von Klarman to Wigner and the rest (yes I recognize the irony of listing out three Martians).
Einstein is the most famous example, but there are many many more.
Enrico Fermi.
Another important contributor was the Soviet Union. They had a pretty good education system for elite hard scientists. Many fled when they could and especially during the chaos of the USSR's collapse.
Lot of good people fled Iran too. Only fitfully welcome in the US.
Instead of USSR, I should have mentioned Eastern Europe in general.
Before retirement I led a research group at Berkeley that, among other things, figured out how to use neural networks (the core engine behind modern AI) for speech recognition. I was thinking about the great grad students and postdocs (many from other countries) that were key to this and how so much of our work was paid for with Federal money. And earlier in my career, I worked at a brain research lab whose advances were entirely funded by Federal dollars. In both cases we were just a small part of America's research efforts, but I think our model was a microcosm of the American technical research world. And all of it had bipartisan support in Congress.
I was visiting with my niece Grace, who is attending a conference on autism research and I said, “well at least your funding is safe”. Wrong! She is in graduate school and a grant that is supporting her might be pulled because it might be promoting research that is “woke”. One of the issues she is investigating is the effect of social stigmas surrounding autism (in books and society in general) on learning and socialization. WTF!? So we don’t want to help the disabled navigate a world that sees them as damaged goods. Incredible.
Sadly, I think so. This is the kind of thing that keeps me up at night. My garden is my therapy.
Oh and everyone, stay extra healthy this fall. Looks like vaccines may become a thing of the past. Hyperbolic I know, but the daily shitstorm from our government makes me wonder…
Same. Thankfully my students this semester were also amazing. Nothing like teaching about forensics in the midst of a constitutional crisis
As a retired psychologist, I find this alarming. Are we getting to the point where good mental health will be considered 'woke' too?
I think we are already at the point where good education is too woke…..
I fear we’re not terribly far away from reverting to the days of locking them away or outright exterminating them. We didn’t learn from HitlerDid we?
I was just reading a post by the Friendly Atheist reviewing data on Trump support by white evangelicals, which is at about 70%, much higher than other religious identity groups. You know, the people who think that evolution is Satanic, that the earth is 6000 years old and was formed in 7 actual days. If you think that believing everything told to you by authority figures is a virtue, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, you will be easy to fool. That is the definition of gullibility. I suspect that that is the cohort of Trump supporters most strongly opposed to support for science.
It sure feels like a determined return to the Dark Ages.
MAGAs know that learning (science, etc.) produces Democrats.
Or sometimes libertarians.
They don't understand that basic research is the engine that drives applied research. You'd think that would be enough, but, on the other hand, these morons don't value applied research either if that applied research doesn't conform to political ideas. Ignorance and stupidity, that's what this is.
They don't value anything that can't be monetized and monopolized.
The thing is applied research can indeed be monetized. But that all stops without basic research. They have to be made to understand. Research scientists, of which I am one, know that.
How can this excellent post be read by those who really do need to read it? I do climate research and we'll run out of funds soon. I feel seen by Professor Krugman's post but I am hoping it will be seen by people who really need to think about what has been done here.
My wife is on a contract from NOAA. Everyone there is waiting on the ax to fall. A few have already bailed out.
I am so sorry to hear that. I wish her all the best
Frankly, due to both the average reading level of our country and the information silos of algorithm content, it's nearly impossible.
These silos do appear to have become very evil.
😢
FY 2025 proposed budget calls for NSF to be cut by more than 50%.
I think a principal reason MAGA hates science is that it casts a harsh light on religion.
Those damn geologists actually think Earth is 4.5 billion years old!
From a researcher's perspective, the impacts of the Administration's use of NSF funding as a weapon against universities go beyond simply closing down funded projects that don't align with their limited thought processes. This morning we learned that, effective May 5, all new awards (and all new awards are frozen with no end in sight) will have an indirect cost rate of 15%. This will impact most universities (not just the R1 to R3 doctoral institutions) whose research administration is supported by indirect funding - they'll have to find more funding from other sources, and that means probably cutting administrative support as well as student support (it's all tied together).
This is putting Tяump's Ameяica in the lead for the race to the bottom.
"Either the United States will destroy ignorance or ignorance will destroy the United States." W.E.B. Dubois, 1905
My money is on the second one
seems to be the current trajectory.
Ignorance is strength all right. You have to be really strong to ignore every single fact that conflicts with your fantasies.