391 Comments

Longtime Californian here with Southern roots -- no, we're not going to secede from the Union... it needs us!

And thank you, Mr. Krugman, for this enlightening post. It should be required reading for every legislator in the United States of America.

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Trump politicizing this tragedy just further shows how dangerously unfit he is to be the nations leader. Conservatives have completely lost their minds. There are no standards any more. How did the evangelicals delude themselves into backing such a deeply immoral man? Would jesus mock a man when he was down? Of course not. Their faith and supposed convictions are a joke.

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They worship Mammon.

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I'm ready to seceed

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Me too

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A hypothetical: What if California withheld federal taxes in order to defray costs of the fires? If the MAGA Feds (how I dread it) are going to play this game then what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

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That threat might actually get enough media attention to force them to make it clear that California supports most other states. From what I have read California also has a larger economy than Republican idok Vladimir Putin does which is another fact the media should be highlighting. They should also be making it clear that another Republican idol, Victor Orban, depends on billions in subsidies from the EU. Trump and Republicans should be ashamed to be bowing down to those losers.

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1dEdited
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spam

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Me too.

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Go ahead. Save the U.S. a lot of money.

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If you read the article you’re commenting under, you would be aware that California’s *inclusion* in the union saves the federal government money.

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My reply was to the one stating he wanted to secede.

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Didn't read it, did you?

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Native Californian here whose mother was from Texas, father from Minnesota. Yeah, secession sounds better and better these days. And, frankly, I don't care if Alabama or Florida or Texas needs us. (Okay, I care about a some of my relatives in Texas, as well as my favorite BBQ place, Black's BBQ in Lockhart, but that's it.)

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All you would need, at most, is a passport to visit the barbarian territory.

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Some of us barbarians voted for Kamala and Tim..... We have to deal with Greg Abbott, Ken Paxton and Ted Cruz - it's more than mortal flesh can bear.....

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Secession may be impractical but you know what might work, at least to some extent? A tax strike. Most people over-withhold and it should be possible to trim estimated tax payments a little without incurring penalties, which are onerous. The reduced revenue would put pressure on the government to borrow.

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Billionaires just don't file tax returns and don't pay taxes.

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You can bet Trump would make sure people who did that were prosecuted and imprisoned. He has no sense of irony.

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Yes, but state computer systems often go down and halt payments, etc.....

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Sister! I’m a native Californian whose father was from Texas and mother from Nebraska.

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Terry Black’s in Austin has beef ribs all of the time.

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Fine, but do you really think that republiCON legislators read?

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How about at least a tax revolt then and give the money to relief? DC won't deserve a $ of CA money after Jan 20th.

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I am not a booster of Texas but I think it should have been included in the discussion on money in and out.

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No we don't. Please leave. The GDP hit would be worth it.

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I wouldn't assume that all of them know how to read...

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They know this. The problem is there constituents do not and don't want to know they live in welfare states.

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Like the great Phoenix out of the ashes, we will RISE AGAIN. We are Los Angelenos, after all.

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As long as humans desire to live on this rock, there will be dangers from the environment. Floods, fire, earthquakes, locusts, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc. we can only hope, if they decide to stay, the rebuilding codes will be unforced there, too. The scam insurance companies that are fleeing responsibility hurt deeply. Unconscionable. However, that said, I am seeing, once again, the goodwill of neighbors, friends and family helping each other get through this. This makes my heart feel better. Grateful for every first responder, government officials and President Biden for stepping up.

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The Lever has a piece out describing how the real estate, housing developers, and the building trades lobbies sunk any efforts in CA to control new housing starts in high-risk, fire-prone areas. Any and all attempts to impose risk mitigation in these fragile but desirable areas was beaten back by the usual well-funded suspects...which of course then led to sky-high insurance rates for home buyers in affected areas.

Global warming plus private greed set the table for this inevitable catastrophe, and here's how the fuel was provided:

https://www.levernews.com/the-architects-of-l-a-s-wildfire-devastation/?utm_source=newsletter-email&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=newsletter-article

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The real force keeping single family zoning has been (mostly white) homeowners not wanting "THOSE PEOPLE" moving into their neighborhoods.

LA planning did a historical deep dive: (TL;DR- it was all racism)

https://planning.lacity.gov/plans-policies/community-plan-update/housing-element-rezoning-program-news/historical-housing-and

NYT (gift article ) has maps of SFZ in major US cities.

https://nyti.ms/37QtS8Z

71% of LA is zoned SF, tho w SB1123 and SB-450 now they can have 4- 20 units on each SF zoned lot.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB450

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB1123

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12 million people live in LA County. LA is broken up in 8 different communities/cities. CA has 40 million living in

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** living in the state! Damn finger hit send before I was finished writing! Grrr

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We in Northern CA are supporting all of you with our fire crews and donations as we have been down this road before too. ❤️💜💕

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Fine, but do it so it can't burn up again!

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Are you also advising all your friends in FL, TX and LA to move before the next hurricane? I’m just double checking. Mean people suck.

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The comment just said hope they build back in a way that won’t burn—I know there are lots of places in Florida where rebuilding will require raising houses on stilts so they aren’t as susceptible to flooding. I’m sure there will be some kinds of steps taken to make the rebuilt LA less susceptible to fires—maybe better protection for electrical wires, for instance, different building materials, less foliage, etc.

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Global warming will result in more danger for both fires and floods in California. This needs consideration when rebuilding. No easy answers.

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Good idea, we'll just change the weather and topography and it will all be great! (And, of course, CA, more than any other state, has done what it can to slow global warming...)

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How much of California burned up, again? It’s a couple small cities. If that is unforgivable, can we also require that Florida not sink into the waves? If the Greenland ice sheet melts, it would raise sea level 20’ and literally put half of Florida under water. Miami would be 100 miles out to sea. I’m not sure there is actually enough dirt in the state to build it up, but not our problem, right? Fix your problems Florida! Then you can be readmitted to the union. Louisiana, you too. The southern third, gone. Texas, you’ll probably just write off Houston, which seems sensible to me.

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perhaps u have stumbled on trumps secret plan to save maralago by buying the greenland ice sheet and selling the ice before it melts.

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Nice try! However, selling the ice before it melts won't stop if from melting. This you would know, if you had used ice before, Poser.

This has the same sort of logic to it that renaming the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America to prevent slave trading and illegal drugs smuggling has. It is more likely to prevent the Spanish Galleon treasure fleet from returning to plunder OUR resources. (Well, the Inca's resources, but we acquired their IP rights after they went Chapter 11 years ago.)

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If the Greenland Ice Sheet melts, more than Florida will be lost. Anyway, let’s be honest, the problem with Florida is political, not geographical. I seem to remember a time when there was a lot of catastrophic flooding in the midwest—everyplace is susceptible to some sort of natural disaster. The most frightening thing is that people just voted in an administration that has promised to be politically capricious in providing emergency assistance. California will probably end up footing more of the bill than other places would have to, but fortunately they have the resources to do so.

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1dEdited

If California took on 20ft of sea level a fair chunk of the Central Valley from Tracy and Stockton up to Sacramento would be underwater too.

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Thanks for the links.

John Mcphee called it the "largest, levelest place on earth" and that plus its elevation goes a long way to explaining why, when it floods, it takes forever to drain.

About 700,000 years ago the sea floor there was tilted north-to-south and the outlet was down there, a little northwest of Buttonwillow, I think, and fed the mighty* Salinas River, draining out thru the Monterey Flats.

As every park ranger presenting an interpretive program ever said**: "A vast inland sea"

*Truly mighty – the Monterey Bay canyon is 2 miles deep.

**This is a standing joke in the National Park Service. Refers not just to the Central Valley, but pretty much all interp programs everywhere if you back far enough.

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take a look at ARkStorm models, based on historical flooding of the Central Valley. ( here ya go: https://www.dri.edu/project/arkstormsierrafront-2-0/ )

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Thanks for the link.

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Remembering the Lost State of Franklin, you have to wonder what would happen with the Lost State of Florida.

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Get the app “Watch Duty”. Loads of accurate fire info. I watch it constantly.

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Mean people suck. Playing politics with disaster aid? Really? They’re all ignorant pigs.

Per the chart below, the overwhelming majority our nation’s FEMA spending has historically all gone to 3 states - Texas, Florida and Louisiana.

Our country literally bails them out on an annual basis… AND seeks nothing in return!

Has anyone ever heard a single serious Democrat suggest we should withhold FEMA aid to any one of these 3 states while they’re in dire need?

https://www.axios.com/2024/10/08/fema-direct-payments-state-recipientsnational total annual FEMA expenditures.

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Fema is for emergencies.

If it happens like clockwork, it's not an emergency. It's foreseeable .

Eg If you have an utterly destructive hurricane every damn year, it's not an emergency. It's just hurricane season and you should pay for it yourself.

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We don't have the every year though, my part of Florida had not been directly hit for a hundred years. They were generally more prone to bowling up the east coast. Or hitting New Orleans or Houston.

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Professor Krugman: it always astonishes me how blind red states are to their collective vulnerability. if they allow California to be destroyed without helping it recover, the entire nation will suffer.

As a native of Seattle, I am thrilled to see Canadians step up, because they are such wonderful people, even when the orange jesus is busily bloviating & threatening their great nation even before he gets into office. the Mexicans are also stepping forward to help -- despite impending deportation orders that (presumably) will be acted on in less than 2 weeks. i also am so thrilled to see the Navaho nation helping as well as incarcerated prisoners -- i truly wish people who recognize everyone's important contributions to the firefighting effort to help California.

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You could substitute "white" for "red" in your first sentence and it would still be mostly true. It would also help underscore what's going on with the MAGAs, who are actually MAWAs: Make America White Again.

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Willful ignorance is easy. Accepting the truth is hard for everyone.

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Well said. Thank you.

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I'm a native New Yorker, and yes we love to trash talk Los Angeles just like they love to do the same to us...but underneath the talk, I've always felt it is all in fun and despite real differences in lifestyle, we're this country's two largest cities. NYC and LA are just .0219% of the US land area, but have 3.5% of the population- and that is just the actual cities, not their metro areas.

I pray that these fires end as soon as possible and LA rebuilds and hopefully also, is able to get past the Nimbyism (something else, in common with NYC) and help ease the housing crisis.

I'm sure in a bit over three years, Los Angeles will once again show the world how great it is during the their THIRD Olympic Games.

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Most of these places are the most expensive real estate in the country or world,owned by the richest people.I don’t think they are going to build a bunch of apartment buildings.

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Although celebrities and the super rich do live in Pacific palisades, most of the people affected are middle class.

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The majority of Angelenos are renters.

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Once again, Paul Krugman makes the numbers make sense. Well done, and well thought through.

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They want to bash California. Let’s take a few moments and look at Red America. Texas? Florida, Ohio? West Virginia? Red America? The Heartland? If so it’s in need of a cardiologist. Infant mortality, literacy, obesity, health and wellness, plain human decency, education level, opioid addiction, net worth, personal freedom. I will take the Pepsi challenge with those assholes anytime. There is a reason why housing is cheaper there. They are by and large where people come from not go to. In Oregon I see license plates from Texas Florida Arizona Nevada and place east and dumb all the time. There is a reason you can’t buy a house in Oregon or Ca with a lot of money. And it’s not homelessness that is driving up demand but people moving out of the red state dystopia. Glad to swap out our own rural dummies who flee to Idaho. So bash away but look to your own house first.

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Amen to what you say. I live in NE Ohio. The GOP state government here is delusional. 35th in the nation in educational attainment, but Ohio State University spent $20 million for football players in the transfer portal.

That says everything you need to know.

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Okay, so we Californians should withhold our federal tax payments until Ohio starts educating its residents better. If we’re going to start imposing conditions on assistance from the federal government…..

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The state of California as a whole should withhold our federal tax payments IF the federal government does not sufficiently step up to help LA with funding that we in large part provided.

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Remember Rosa Parks! She helped initiate the civil rights movement in the United States when she refused to give up her seat to a white man on a Montgomery, Alabama bus in 1955. Her actions inspired the leaders of the local Black community to organize the Montgomery Bus Boycott which lasted more than a year and ended only when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that bus segregation was unconstitutional.

It’s possible!

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🤣🤣

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Funny? Sure, I know it's a pie-in-the-sky dream to do so, but if we're being targeted with having funds withheld because of our liberal politics (a dirty tactic), then what's left for us to do but play the game?

"Sorry, but we need these funds to repair ourselves. State of emergency and all that."

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I'm laughing because I'm a Californian and it's just such a delicious idea.

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Oooh got it. Thank you for explaining. It IS delicious an idea.

As Spock said: "Revenge is a dish best served cold."

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Laugh all you want, but there are more Republicans here in CA than there are in several smaller states--combined. There are 40 million people who live here, so we're going to have a lot more of everything.

How are the R's who voted for the Orange Puffball going to feel when he withholds aid for LA, under the guise that the Governor is incompetent and won't sign imaginary documents? After all, their houses burned, too.

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Maybe they mentioned it when they were at Mar a Lago this weekend? Yes the CA GOP delegation went to Mar a Lago (except for David Valadao) while the fires rage. Do you think that will keep them from criticizing our mayor?

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Actually, the numbers show that most of the price increases are due to hedge funds, institutional investors, companies requiring employees to return to the office in the SF Bay Area, new tech hires, and 2nd homes for vaction and AirBNB. The numbers also show a yearly EXODUS of people leaving the state. We have plenty of housing, just check Realtor.com, craiglist, hotpads, etc. It's just that people want to live in areas in which they can't afford (entitlement issue). Newsom has mandated 3.5 million more homes as a part of his 2017 election campaign but most cities and towns do not want this and would fight this save for the fact that when they do, a 'builder's rememdy' option occurs which lets developers go around local building ordinances and zoning and build whatever the heck they want. Few of us are happy about this but we're declared NIMBY's for this.

More reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_exodus

https://www.lewis.ucla.edu/research/california-lacks-capacity-to-meet-lofty-housing-goals/

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I probably shouldn’t say this but I wish California would become independent. Especially if it’s denied disaster aid.

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My state of WA too! Personally, I wish we could just be absorbed into Canada. I already live less than an hour from the Canadian border. It would be awesome if Canada just took us all back.

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Canada, West Coast, and Mexico, under Canadian political and legal systems: Canada++, world’s third largest economy.

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If you join with California we can fix some of this nonsense, without needing to rewrite all our signs in French.

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Molly, yes! This Skagitonian wishes it were that simple. It would beat having to present Canada with $1 million in order to be welcomed in.

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I believe that would be $1M per Canadian. Which is far too low a price. Everyone has a price & mine is a shit ton more than a measly $1M, lol.

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Caliexit:)

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I'm in

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Former Forest Service employee in SoCal here. Since the Republican line about the fires is that California should do more to manage its forests, perhaps it’s worth noting that almost all of the land that has burned is managed by federal agencies (NPS and USFS in Palisades and Eaton respectively) which have faced decades of staffing and funding cuts, mostly at the hands of Republican administrations. If the congressman from Ohio is so concerned about fire management (which furthermore in this ecosystem pretty much amounts to planting more oak trees and encouraging the growth of native chaparral to outcompete more flammable invasive fuels such as mustard), he could start by encouraging far MORE funding for this very cause in the federal budget. But let he whose state is without a rail derailment disaster caused by decades of Republican-led deregulation cast the first stone and all that…

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the GOP California House delegation hurried to Mar-a-Lago this weekend for an audience with Dear Leader while fellow Californians were trying to get through an epic firestorm. But why not? Their constituents won’t care. It’s just a bunch of Los Angelenos. Let ’em burn.

The rest of the world is not as callous:

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I saw that pic. All of them surrounded the Orange Menace with their thumbs up--a real Ted Cruz Cancun-style photo. A better pic would have been with their thumbs up their assholes.

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this is childish gibberish and name calling. What's the point?

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The POINT is...instead of being on the ground in California and being part of the solution, the CA GOP caucus would rather be hanging out in MAL with someone who is actively lying about what is going on in LA.

They share in his cruelty.

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It could be argued that if they want help after next week, being as far up Dear Leader’s ass as possible is the way to have some hope of getting needed resources—it’s terrible but it’s the way things are gonna be for the next few years.

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You didn't see their other thumb in the photo.

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Do you know for sure that they weren't asking him to STFU? Last I looked there were still GOP House members from SoCal, and not all that far from LA.

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On 2nd thought, I'm pretty sure I'm giving them too much credit.

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It has been a while since I've been to California but I loved it out there. From LA area, 3hrs east go water skiing, 1-2hrs west go to the beach, 1-2hrs south go to TJ, a few hrs north and go show skiing. It is never too cold or too hot(though this is changing) Cali is a great place. Here in Alabama, a state that has held to previledge off being the 6th most corrupt state in the Nation, most people here that hate California have never been there and only know the lies they've been told by racist, masogynist & homophobs. Fact is California and the people in it are just like all Americans though maybe with a lot less hatred. Maybe so many in the South East hate California because they aren't there. I've been all over the country and meet good people every where I've been. It is amazing just how much you might have in common with people when the Trump/Fox News Reich Wing Hate Machine isn't driving the narrative.

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😀 This Californian thanks you for your lovely comment.

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You're more than welcome. I look forward to when I can get back out there. Stay safe and hopefully they will be able to get all the fires under control soon.

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👍

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I loved living there around Riverside. A friend (who turned out to be a Fox-head) was raving about how nasty "California" was and dirty, with cholera making a comeback. I blinked and told her that was going to come as a shock to my friends that live there. And they hadn't seen any of that. Perhaps she should get a better source of information.

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I have a brother inlaw that was in Riverside a few years ago. My wife and her family are all from Texas so he retired back in Texas close to his daughters. In the 80s I owned a big truck and hauled produce from Cali. I hauled cantaloupe from Riverside many times. Also a lot of cirtus there. I also got to go to Riverside Raceway before they shut it down to big apartments. Riverside is a beautiful place. Back then, in Ontario there were roads build close to the airport that didn't have anything built on them yet and I was able to park on one of those roads and watch the Concord Jet Line take off. That was cool, LOL and loud.

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Not only does ignorant MAGA Republican number eleventy billion not understand how blue states keep red states from collapse, he also fails to understand that the state of California only controls about 5% of forest land in the state, the rest is controlled by the feds and private interests. And the feds are still trying to recover from all of the cuts made by Trump and his lackeys the first time we allowed ourselves to have a criminal thug in the White House.

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I'm in a small city 20 m from downtown Los Angeles which is at the base of the San Gabriel mountains. We saw the Bobcat fire on the slopes above us in 2020 (coming from the east) and have been on evacuation warning because of the Eaton fire (coming from the west). Nothing that has burned in either of those fires are forests - although yes, CA does have forests (further north and way up our mountains) and they have burned in the past. We have chaparral, which is native brush - and we have a lot of it now b/c of two years of heavy rain - and it is very dry b/c there hasn't been much, really any, rain this year. Oh, and these current fires have really been urban fires - think, the great Chicago fire. Neither Pacific Palisades, nor Altadena or Pasadena, the areas most hard hit, are "in" the chaparral - they just border on it.

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Most of the houses were ignited by blowing embers. (Remember 40-100mph winds will blow burning stuff against and into houses.)

I'm in Pasadena south of the 210.

A fair # of the houses that burned had cedar shake roofs.

Most of the rest had flammable, vinyl or wood siding or attic vents that let flaming embers blow in. Or they had wooden porches, vinyl windows, etc., etc.

Steel roofs, stucco walls and 1/4" metal mesh on vents, plus avoiding flammable decks, etc. close to the house will prevent 90+% of wildfire ignitions.

https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/wildfire/preparing-homes-for-wildfire

Concrete/urethane domes have survived incredible fires.

https://www.monolithic.org/foam/foam-fire-hazard-and-fire-barrier/photos

Most of these houses were built before 1960- nobody thought about wildfires then.

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Stay safe, Rena!

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The houses are the fuel, yes.

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Today, I'm writing an article on infant mortality. I just noticed that California's infant mortality rate is among the lowest among the US states and that the map of infant mortality rates is almost the same as the map of red and blue states. Blue states take better care of their people's lives and health.

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Last I looked, California has the lowest rate of maternal mortality in the country.

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Quality of life in general, I'd bet.

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I live in Florida. As people of a right wing tendency move here to retire the whole state has moved right, even extreme right. But moderate to progressives still live here. They are a significant minority. I intend to this week to make a donation to organizations helping my brother and sister Californians. It is after all the Christian thing to do. White Christian nationalist is a heresy. Many people have left churches over that.

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Not enough of them. Hello fellow Floridian, I live on our west coast.

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I'm in Palm Beach County, just another Senior, Trying to get By on Only My Social Security.

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Thank you, Stephen, from California.

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Los Angeles does have forests, but only in the San Gabriel Mountains on the east side. Other than that we have scrub. That's what burns. You can't rake it because there's nothing to rake. You can't remove all of it because there's too much of it, but even if you did there would be mudslides when it rains. So the ignorant Republicans who are talking about changing the way we manage our environment have no idea what they're talking about.

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Unfortunately, that's why they get elected, they reflect their constituents ignorance.

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And malice.

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I've know for years California my home state subsidized many 'poor' red states. As an American it didn't matter to me...they needed help during a disaster I was grateful the US Treasury had the money to take care of things. This petty BS from actual Congressional leaders is beyond the pale. Grow up and stop the 'us vs them' mentality. During a disaster we come together as a country and help each other...period hard stop.

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