Yes, they are the best on Substack. I assume Paul has someone clean them up for him and make them so readable, perhaps his wife Robin. Jack the Cat says he would do it, but it would all be in Cat and only other cats would understand.
Another great source of solid science pushing back are the several books by Paul Offit. Highly recommended. His book, Bad Advice, deals with disinformation pushed by celebrities and such topics. But having read several of his books, I would recommend any of them.
If the Democrats come back in power, they will try to support science. All fine and good. But it doesn't address the root cause. How can we de-Nazify America, not just a few Nazi policies?
Go after the head of the snake. Tax the 0.1% that financed the run up to the current regime ruthlessly. Then spend the money on public goods, like education and infrastructure. Obviously, Citizens United, and a number of other SC decisions need to be reversed. Pull the tax exempt status of churches.
The problem is that under the current leadership the Democrats don't have the cajones to do those things necessary. It's how we got here....slowly and surely with each election cycle they gave ground to the right wing. Finally the right just decided they wanted everything and the Dems were in the way....even in a small way.
It's sort of like Willy Sutton's comment on robbing banks, they pander to the elite because "that's where the money is." Until the US figures out a way to get money out of politics, at least to some extent, things are going to continue to go downhill.
That would be a start. But multiple other areas need to be addressed also. Proportional voting would help. Something must also be done about gerrymandering. It's a very hard problem. Ultimately, I don't think it's possible to run a democracy with clueless voters. It's not obvious how to get out of the death spiral of oligarchy and pseudo-Populism.
"Until the US figures out a way to get money out of politics"
That is going to be extremely difficult.
The Supremes (in "Citizens United" — what an Orwellian title!) declared that any "person" could spend any amount of money on any election, and that a "person" could include any sort of corporation.
It would take a strong act of Congress to negate that. Do you really think that is possible with today's deep Congressional division? Remember, it only takes a third of Senators to veto such legislation.
No, the Supreme Court has spoken, and I'm afraid you're stuck with "money is speech, and corporations are people."
America has totally lost its way. What a sad state of affairs.
The US will end up like Russia, worst case, or Argentina, best case, if money continues to equal speech. It is entirely possible that the structure of the US government precludes any fix to the problem, absent a catastrophe of some sort.
Many Dems are also bought off. I think the US will need to go through the horrors of a WW-like event and I think trump et al is leading the way. My only hope is that the US will become more like Canada in the end. I can’t tell you the number of clueless people I come across.
America should be ready for a new constitution. The flaws of the US constitution, crafted by white, landed, slave owning men, have born fruit: Donald Trump et al. Let's bring all humans and the sentient earth to “We the…”
You need to read our constitution before you abandon it. The problem isn't the constitution, it is that we don't require our leaders in all three branches to abide by it, as they pledge an oath to do.
And how do you "require" them to do it? The Constitution is a "gentleman's agreement" and was considered honorable to follow; Trump et al are not gentlemen.
The constitution has a serious flaw in Article II where is gives the president full executive powers without defining what they are or placing any meaningful guardrails. So the president’s power turns out to be whatever he says it is, as long as the folks on the SC(who he installed) don’t object. This desperately needs to change by saying that the president’s power turns is charged with implementing the laws passed by Congress and commanding the army, which can only fight in wars authorized by Congress. Full stop — no other powers to the president.
I don't believe our constitution is the chief reason we are in this jam today, though of course its flaws contributed. We had this constiitution a very long time without being in this pickle. Keep looking for and testing explanations.
Yes. Maine passed their ballot initiative to limit donations to superPACS. one court said The initiative passed was unconstitutional and it’s now headed to a higher court.
This is not the first time there has been a Constitutional crisis. Remember the Civil War? That was largely because slaves were considered 3/5ths of a human in the Constitution!
Arguably, the Civil War was a "worse pickle" than what we're in, but at the rate things are going, just wait a few weeks…
The violent revolution is foremost in our entertainment sector. More imaginative (less entertaining) is the curious inquiry of how to include all humans and the earth that grew them in nourishing systems. Stamina required.
If you split up the country the blue states could, no doubt, write a new and improved constitution. But a new constitution with the country we have now would not produce something better but most likely something far worse.
A constitution is only as good as the willingness of all the citizens and political parties to abide by it. Right now a large minority of citizens and the controlling political party are not willing to do that.
So, if you want a new constitution, that will require secession by agreement or a violent civil war I am afraid. Short of that, best try to regain political control and remove the many structural poison pills in the current Constitution.
I guess I forgot to articulate the most exciting part. Dissolve this failed federation. Strengthen STATEs. Reconvene at our convenience. Reclaim our military. Seize bases in our state. Create new alliances like with….say….California (my neighbor) the 4th largest economy in the world. New alliances with Canada, also my neighbor, with whom we are creating a fire management alliance. Oh. We could create a health alliance and vaccine alliance. Creative solutions for elastic brains and joyful hearts.
1861? It is to the century BEFORE LAST that you look for data about today? When straight up for reals ONLY white men and commerce were afforded protections? That is what you invoke? Well. You look back and I'll look forward and we'll both muddle through.
You think the Republicans would agree to an amicable split? More likely, while they have complete control of all Federal power, they would relish refighting the Civil War. Why would they give any part of it away - especially the lucrative blue pieces that produce all of the wealth - when they can have it all? Lets not give them any of it. If ever there was a country where the sum far exceeds its parts it is the US. What was it Ben Franklin said? We had better all hang together or we will surely all hang separately."
Now we may very well have a civil war if that's what Trump really wants but lets not encourage it until it we have no choice. Until then, maximum exercise of state's rights, legal options and massive civil disobedience. And if we can't get Americans to engage in massive enough civil disobedience, what chance do you think we would have in a real civil war? So let's try these first.
I am on your side, Cynthia. You have the passion. I would just ask that you think a little more deeply about all of this.
A quote comes to mind:
"Not to be a rebel at age 20 shows lack of heart; to be a rebel at age 30 shows lack of head." Perhaps we can marry these two sentiments and find a way out?
Then We the People need to get more involved in the Democratic Party and make it represent us. The Republicans are lost but if we want change then the Democrats are the platform we need to work on.
You can not have mass misinformation orgs advocating the overthrow of the government and there should be some limits on their ability to endanger the general public. People don't like the idea of limiting freedom of speech, but we need to be nuanced on the issue and recognize that we have tried out an experiment (very few limits on speech from mass media organizations) which has badly failed. At this point it sure looks like we may have to pay the consequences and from the rubble perhaps thinking more adapted to our actual circumstances may emerge and take hold. There are risks in having the FTC or other govt bodies hold private media orgs accountable for their content of course. But putatively they respond to the will of Congress and thus the will of the people. That's the theory anyway. If we do not have sufficient trust in our government to do the right thing then we are at the mercy of other entities who have little accountablility to the public. And some of them will sell ivermectin along with autocrats to the voters.
Let me try operationalizing your proposal. Criminalize activity that would be libelous under Times v. Sullivan: intentional lies with knowledge of falsity. This would be difficult for a government to abuse. It is hard to establish a criminal state of mind when the criminal act itself is not sufficient evidence of mental state. (It is hard enough for civil plaintiffs, who face a lower standard of proof than "reasonable doubt.") For organizational liars, criminalize executives who recklessly permit or encourage such lies.
To do this, you would first have to abolish the filibuster and pack the Supreme Court. But these themselves are valuable enablers of de-Nazification.
I was thinking more in terms of the FCC taking away a license to broadcast misinformation that was dangerous to the public as being not in the public interest. There could be several remedies. regulating free speech in a digital age : hate, harm and the limits of censorship by David BROMEL
Politics IS the problem. Truth & Justice are the foundational blocks of our Constitution. But they are specifically excluded as ‘requirements’ in our politics. It is NOT ILLEGAL to lie. Lying is an accepted construct of our communication with others.
We all lie…every single one of us.
Our voting habits, our preferred candidates, our political choices are based on which lies we believe.
Think about it. Take some time and think about it…
I think I have to disagree with you here. I distinguish lying from deception. I'll agree with what you say insofar as deception is concerned. To use your words, deception "is an accepted construct of our communication with others." Absolutely! But lying is not accepted, at least in any matters of any importance.
Lawyers put great stress on this distinction. Lawyers constantly try to deceive the opposition, but most are very careful about lying. A reputation as a great deceiver is a reputation as a great lawyer. A reputation as a great liar can cause a lawyer to lose their license.
True, most lawyers don’t knowingly lie in court. But elsewhere, they may be prolific unabashed liars. Pam Bondi is USA Attorney General, but she regularly lies to the media when she repeats Trump’s lies knowingly.
Everyone lies, Ziggy. I include you since you are a human being.
BTW, all lies are intended to deceive. We may try to deceive without lying, but it takes a good actor to succeed.
In the new world order in which the USA has turned its back on science, your PhD students will have to spend time in our Chinese and European universities and you will have to hope that they will come home with the knowledge you need to keep up. Topsy turvy.
Anyone who doubts whether this will happen should consult the latest Nature Index for 2024, which shows that 10 of the top 12 centres for scientific research in the world are already in China. The other two were Harvard University and the Max Planck Institutes in Germany.
The most astonishing part of this article is the relevation that the quack medical supplements, etc., industry has so much revenue. Since it's legal for these folks to attack the real medical industry, without restrictions, as they aren't regulated by the FDA, it's only a matter of time before actual medical science is pushed aside. The US is truly doomed. As a aside, how long will it be before cigarettes make a come back, with "coffin nails" rebranded as weight loss "promoters."
I was a subject in a well-run double blind study ~10 years ago that addressed whether so-called 'medical supplements' would counteract or protect against the health effects of elevated PM2.5 in the atmosphere. We were given large amounts of vitamins and such 3x per day for several months and our respiratory systems were monitored. After the reports were submitted, the subjects were gathered to hear about the results and the only measurable effect found was that on the average the subjects gained weight by roughly the cumulative weight of the supplements. The study was financed by the supplement manufacturer.
One reason the wellness industry has thrived is that amidst all the misinformation is a kernel of truth. ConsumerLab tests supplements and keeps track of all the studies done on them. Some are helpful BUT the drug manufacturers are not interested in testing anything that is readily available and cheap. So the charlatans come in and claim that space.
BigPharma IS profit-driven, so that motive can be used against legitimate science even when it is nonsense.
Capitalism has within it the seeds of its own destruction because people don't always trust companies that are profit-driven.
The university research system rewards publishing to get tenure, and there has been an epidemic of lying and fraud in research.
All of the above have created a situation in which it is all too easy to sow distrust.
PM stands for Particulate Matter, not parts per million, which is written ppm. The number stands for the maximum size of the particles, so PM2.5 refers to airborne particles up to 2.5 micrometers (millionths of a meter). Particles this small can be inspired like a gas and so they reach the lungs and can do damage there, depending on the material of which they are made.
PM2.5 comes from any kind of burning from BBQs to forest fires that really jack up the readings to the point you should wear an N95 mask outside and keep your windows closed.
Quack medical suppliments, etc. are kind of like Bitcoin or Q-Anon but often appeals to some on the left as well, because they sound sort of "science-like". People want the idea of a quick fix or hope. Bitcoin is like gambling or get rich quick and suppliments are like that for health, like a cure-all or snake-oil.
Then there are the science deniers who just don't want to listen or know the truth, and the GOP prey on them, as well for votes.
What these all have in common is they are often promoted by greed and those who prey on the vulnerable who simply want to believe in it.
This was also what was meant when Kennedy was called a predator by a relative assuming he knows the difference between correlation and causation. If he does know, then he is a predator. If not he has no business heading a science agency - either way a bad thing,
Good points. I’ve watched as the liberal back to earth, anti-corporate hippies in my state who supported free speech, reproductive rights and civil rights back in the 1970s start voting for right wing candidates. I thought this might explain RFK jr, but also wonder about his finances. Two divorces and poor thinking skills following his heroin addiction probably took a big bite out of his inherited money, leaving him to prostitute himself. In the past 15 years, I’ve witnessed many other formerly reasonable community leaders in my state start prostitute themselves for outside money.
MAHA is more the Marianne Williamson crowd. In the 90'ies West LA had a serious anti vax movement with something like only 80% vax rates in the schools. It was the Brentwood woowoo "health" parents causing the drop.
In Canada the quack supplements industry is at least somewhat regulated by the drug surveillance authorities. At least to the point of not being physically harmful, & no explicit lies. Every year some such products are banned. But it is still very profitable. Also, they have limited ability to make campaign donations.
The combination of the for profit health insurance industry, and entire quack industries like the supplements business are going to be major drivers in the demise of the US. These two areas account for literally trillions of dollars drained from what could be productive areas of the economy. The health "insurance" industry is a parasite, producing nothing, and draining money that could otherwise have funded actual health care. The supplements industry is somewhat less destructive, until they start financing disinformation campaigns against real medicine. It will be interesting to see how many babies dying from measles, etc., it will take to snap people out of their fantasy world of "natural" cures.
I keep seeing an ad online about a nail fungus remedy. It is a footbath filled with cut lemons in water. Ten years ago, I bought a bottle of nail fungus medicine. It costs about $12 today. I have not finished it yet. Lemons are currently going for about $3 a pound. It wouldn't take long for the lemon bath to cost more than the medical remedy, and the lemon bath is much messier.
Me too! I was shocked when that $500,000,000,000 figure came up for the size of the phony baloney wellness industry came up. That is a lot of scratch to use for buying off politicians. But hey, when running for a house seat costs $1,500,000 and running for a Senate seat costs $15,000,000 on average, you gots to get da money where ya can!
How defunded has the FDA been? A lot. It doesn't matter if quality control, good manufacturing practices aren't followed if no one ever does meaningful inspections anymore.
What will happen to our overseas pharmaceutical business when our regulatory process is no longer trusted in other countries?
There are well done studies that do show benefits for taking vitamins and minerals and some supplements. Most MD do recommend taking a multi vitamin/mineral pill every day and there are special blends for kids, men and women, pregnant women and seniors that have a basis in legit studies that show benefits. But there is also lots of quackery out there too. Some of it dangerous like turmeric which in high doses via pills can cause serious organ damage.
Thank you for this helpful interview. Three people with strong personal integrity and courage. It’s so sad that scientists of all types need courage today to do the work that benefits all of us. I hope the nightmare we’re living in right now ends and this upside/down trump administration comes to an early end.
Alas, Americans have always been fascinated by quackery, especially in Utah, considered the home of the modern supplement industry starting in the 1950s with the companies "Nature's Way" and " Nature's Sunshine". Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah supercharged Utah's supplement industry with the Dietary Supplement and Education Act of 1994. The Act stopped the FDA's efforts to put supplements under its purview. It treats dietary supplements as a category separate from both conventional foods and drugs, not requiring manufacturers to prove products are safe and effective before they are marketed. The supplement industry is estimated to be the third-largest employer in Utah, generating around $10 BILLION annually.
A lot of "educated" people are looking for better health and spend a lot in pursuit of it. They shop at Whole Foods and other expensive health food stores that also have large supplement sections bigger than CVS. The guy who owned Whole Foods before Bezos bought it didn't offer any health insurance to employees because they got discounts so they could buy their woowoo food and supps and then not need Doctors because they would never get sick. He was a real SOB.
I have recently been reading about the period from about 1900 to WWI. It was a time of extremely rapid change and technologically driven displacement. Much of the common ethos was similar to today. The common folk felt things were changing too fast and they were being left behind and the elites, being insulated by wealth, were relatively unaware, or uncaring of the inequality and widespread societal dislocations. In that period too, populists used the opportunity. I am particularly struck by the story of Karl Lueger, mayor of Vienna from 1897 to 1910 who is famous for using antisemitism as a tool for provoking the people and holding power. He is famous for declaring "I decide who is a Jew." and is purported to have said "antisemitism is the socialism of fools". He was known to be a major influence on the young Adolf Hitler. It is all so familiar.
As an aside I might add that all of the things that Mann and Hotez describe for climate science and vaccine science (harassment of scientists, fake debates and symposia to try to polish those pseudoscientific turds, etc.) have a long history in the creationism/evolution domain as well. The rural/urban divide and the authoritarian tendencies of fundamentalist churches play a role there as well. We've been down this road before, sadly.
It didn’t take very long for the mistake to come back in the form of Covid-19 and bite us in the ass. There would be some sort of tragic poetic justice if the next global pandemic emerges during Trump 2.0.
This stumbles into the same “elephant in the room” repeatedly without identifying it as the real problem.
It’s the disinformation.
Disinformation (think FOX News) has been a steady drip of poison into our psyche. You are looking at the results of this poisoning. Loss of faith in institutions and each other and truth itself.
The river running through decades of FOX et al is the message that Democrats are bad and are different and against you and want your kids to be gay and never learn about Christmas. And here we are.
My solution is that we must recognize that these organized lies are harmful, and hold the liars accountable. Dominion/Smartmatic showed that it is possible to hold FOX accountable for lies, but also showed the extraordinary resources needed to do it.
You can’t falsely shout “Fire!” In a crowded theater. The same principle applies.
yes ff we EVER get back into power the Murdock family (SP) should be charged with mass distribution of false and dangerous information. Crimes against the American people. All the hosts, all the producers etc should also face criminal charges for the same thing. (if there is not yet a law there needs to be one passed!!) I have given up American though, I believe it is lost now thus my moving to Canada next March when the. wife retires (or sooner is forced to do it!) i can go because of dual citizenship
I am sharing this personal story because I think it is relevant to today’s discussion.
One reason that RFK Jr., and the money making anti-science people can sell their quackery is that people do not know their families stories, or if they do, they are not able to think logically and connect them to the present.
Spanish influenza ripped through the world in 1918 forever scarring the lives of family members who survived.
When I was growing up I realized two things. One, was that the people who lived through that time did not want to remember and would not talk about it. Secondly, this epidemic never became part of literature. I found one short story that sort of addressed it. No one wanted to remember either publicly or privately.
I have a family story about Spanish influenza that I’ve had to put together piece-meal because no one talked about it.
From birth and death certificates I learned the following:
• On December 1, 1918 my father’s immigrant parents welcomed their seventh child.
• On December 8, 1918 my father’s father died from influenza.
• The following November, 1919 the baby died.
From my father, when he was very upset about the death of a sister, I learned that their mother had a breakdown and had to go away because in my father’s words, “Mommy was sick.”
The six children were taken in by a number of families in the community.
Fortunately, their mother got well and they were back together in a home that they owned.
While the children were growing up the mother had to be very resourceful getting an income and feeding the family.
Somehow, all six children graduated high school – an accomplishment back then.
But their adult lives were not what they might have been. Only one had a successful marriage.
Some families reminisce about their growing up years. They never did.
The point of my story is who in their right mind would want to go back to a pre-vaccine era and suffer all these consequences?
My grandmother lived through the 1918 flu pandemic in NYC. She never spoke a word about it. I'm sure the horror was not something she wanted to recall.
My English grandmother married a Canadian soldier in WW 1. He died of the flu. She came out to Canada after the war and eventually married someone else.
The fossil fuel industry itself is grounded in applied geological science. Which is continuous with physics, chemistry, paleontology, etc. So they don’t themselves disbelieve science. Which means they have not the shred of a moral excuse. They are deliberately harming others with their disinformation tactics.
Both guests touched on the base issue - why science is being challenged - and went part way down that avenue without really nailing down why - and we know why. The fascist approach is to destroy any other authority - and science is an authority. Once it is destroyed - then all guidance comes from the fascists and there is no way to challenge the followers of the cult.
Listen to Hannah Arendt The Origins of Totalitarianism and she describes much of what is going on.
Another fabulous interview. Thanks, as always, for the transcript from this visual learner!
PK has the best transcripts on Substack. I complain futilely to Substack podcast creators to upgrade - and give them PK as a reference.
Yes, they are the best on Substack. I assume Paul has someone clean them up for him and make them so readable, perhaps his wife Robin. Jack the Cat says he would do it, but it would all be in Cat and only other cats would understand.
That's how cats keep us humans under their paws.
I make it a point to comment each time on his excellent transcripts! Glad to know I'm not the only one who notices!
Wow -- so true! I saved the transcript and will refer to it often! Great interview -- really stands out!
Indeed. I'd be lost without a transcript. A fascinating interview (always with Paul Krugman) would go in one ear & out the other.
💯
Another great source of solid science pushing back are the several books by Paul Offit. Highly recommended. His book, Bad Advice, deals with disinformation pushed by celebrities and such topics. But having read several of his books, I would recommend any of them.
Offit also has a Substack, free to read. “Beyond the Noise.”
You definitely should take ear plugs.
Scary though. Yellow fever here we come (a very horrible disease)!
If the Democrats come back in power, they will try to support science. All fine and good. But it doesn't address the root cause. How can we de-Nazify America, not just a few Nazi policies?
Go after the head of the snake. Tax the 0.1% that financed the run up to the current regime ruthlessly. Then spend the money on public goods, like education and infrastructure. Obviously, Citizens United, and a number of other SC decisions need to be reversed. Pull the tax exempt status of churches.
Good luck! We have one seriously entrenched snake with long-term plans to instantly grow new heads.
Come on my US friend!
The US has put men on the moon!
Surely you can find ways to fairly tax a person who earns too much and does not contribute to "the common good".
"The US has put men on the moon!"
Yea, ~60 years ago, and not since.
That may well be looked upon by future historians as the high point of US science.
This crowd is also very anti-tax.
If the moon landings were a brazen lie than just imagine how big the other lies are. https://www.sibrel.com/
Too true!
The problem is that under the current leadership the Democrats don't have the cajones to do those things necessary. It's how we got here....slowly and surely with each election cycle they gave ground to the right wing. Finally the right just decided they wanted everything and the Dems were in the way....even in a small way.
today D leadership are NOT democrats but neo-liberal clones who abandoned working families 5 decades ago to pursue the elitist donors
It's sort of like Willy Sutton's comment on robbing banks, they pander to the elite because "that's where the money is." Until the US figures out a way to get money out of politics, at least to some extent, things are going to continue to go downhill.
Getting rid of the electoral college system would make it harder for big-money to buy elections and influence lawmakers.
That would be a start. But multiple other areas need to be addressed also. Proportional voting would help. Something must also be done about gerrymandering. It's a very hard problem. Ultimately, I don't think it's possible to run a democracy with clueless voters. It's not obvious how to get out of the death spiral of oligarchy and pseudo-Populism.
"Until the US figures out a way to get money out of politics"
That is going to be extremely difficult.
The Supremes (in "Citizens United" — what an Orwellian title!) declared that any "person" could spend any amount of money on any election, and that a "person" could include any sort of corporation.
It would take a strong act of Congress to negate that. Do you really think that is possible with today's deep Congressional division? Remember, it only takes a third of Senators to veto such legislation.
No, the Supreme Court has spoken, and I'm afraid you're stuck with "money is speech, and corporations are people."
America has totally lost its way. What a sad state of affairs.
The US will end up like Russia, worst case, or Argentina, best case, if money continues to equal speech. It is entirely possible that the structure of the US government precludes any fix to the problem, absent a catastrophe of some sort.
Many Dems are also bought off. I think the US will need to go through the horrors of a WW-like event and I think trump et al is leading the way. My only hope is that the US will become more like Canada in the end. I can’t tell you the number of clueless people I come across.
I think we have another pandemic while orange asshat and minions caught with pants down
Dr. Hotez basically said that would happen
Clueless people: a dime a dozen.
These Dems are stuck in “work across the aisle” mode. That’s GONE.
All those voting for the genius bill, example. What the f is going on?
Who bells the cat?
That & a minimum tax for everyone with special deductions.
After the basic exceptions (that everyone gets), everyone has to pay at least the base (lowest) tax rate.
So you don't have billionaire paying no tax on large profits.
Create employment in tax havens? Far better to go after land values and abolish IP.
America should be ready for a new constitution. The flaws of the US constitution, crafted by white, landed, slave owning men, have born fruit: Donald Trump et al. Let's bring all humans and the sentient earth to “We the…”
You need to read our constitution before you abandon it. The problem isn't the constitution, it is that we don't require our leaders in all three branches to abide by it, as they pledge an oath to do.
And how do you "require" them to do it? The Constitution is a "gentleman's agreement" and was considered honorable to follow; Trump et al are not gentlemen.
The Constitution is the supreme Law of the Land, but the law doesn't protect us unless the courts enforce it. The supreme Court joined Trump's insurrection when they forced all states to place him on the ballot. https://nevinhoraceoliphant.substack.com/p/judges-wealth-and-justice?r=3sr22y
Maybe convicted felons aren't eligible ?
Automatic impeachment (or at least suspension) for violating the constitution ?
The constitution has a serious flaw in Article II where is gives the president full executive powers without defining what they are or placing any meaningful guardrails. So the president’s power turns out to be whatever he says it is, as long as the folks on the SC(who he installed) don’t object. This desperately needs to change by saying that the president’s power turns is charged with implementing the laws passed by Congress and commanding the army, which can only fight in wars authorized by Congress. Full stop — no other powers to the president.
The President must follow the supreme Law of the Land, and that includes the laws passed by Congress. The supreme Court is aiding and abetting the Trump insurrection. https://nevinhoraceoliphant.substack.com/p/judges-wealth-and-justice?r=3sr22y
Sure. Whatever you say...
Some things need definite major tweaking.
I don't believe our constitution is the chief reason we are in this jam today, though of course its flaws contributed. We had this constiitution a very long time without being in this pickle. Keep looking for and testing explanations.
One factor is almost unlimited election spending, including by special interest groups.
Yes. Maine passed their ballot initiative to limit donations to superPACS. one court said The initiative passed was unconstitutional and it’s now headed to a higher court.
Check "Citizens United".
The Supreme Court has already decisively spoken on the subject.
Corporations are people, and money is speech.
That's a deep, deep hole to dig out of.
See equal citizens.us
This is not the first time there has been a Constitutional crisis. Remember the Civil War? That was largely because slaves were considered 3/5ths of a human in the Constitution!
Arguably, the Civil War was a "worse pickle" than what we're in, but at the rate things are going, just wait a few weeks…
The initial Constitution was crafted by white, landed, slave owning men. The 14th and 19th Amendment turned it into a freedom and justice for all in 1868. https://nevinhoraceoliphant.substack.com/p/judges-wealth-and-justice?r=3sr22y
Great idea, but short of a violent revolution, it ain't gonna happen. Even then...the militias tend to be far right.
Excellent show of imagination...
Explain please.
The violent revolution is foremost in our entertainment sector. More imaginative (less entertaining) is the curious inquiry of how to include all humans and the earth that grew them in nourishing systems. Stamina required.
Much as I'd like to agree with you, I think we're closer to a French Revolution than a global epiphany.
If you split up the country the blue states could, no doubt, write a new and improved constitution. But a new constitution with the country we have now would not produce something better but most likely something far worse.
A constitution is only as good as the willingness of all the citizens and political parties to abide by it. Right now a large minority of citizens and the controlling political party are not willing to do that.
So, if you want a new constitution, that will require secession by agreement or a violent civil war I am afraid. Short of that, best try to regain political control and remove the many structural poison pills in the current Constitution.
I guess I forgot to articulate the most exciting part. Dissolve this failed federation. Strengthen STATEs. Reconvene at our convenience. Reclaim our military. Seize bases in our state. Create new alliances like with….say….California (my neighbor) the 4th largest economy in the world. New alliances with Canada, also my neighbor, with whom we are creating a fire management alliance. Oh. We could create a health alliance and vaccine alliance. Creative solutions for elastic brains and joyful hearts.
"Dissolve this failed federation."
You mean a friendly agreement to part ways? Like we did in 1861...Oh wait.
1861? It is to the century BEFORE LAST that you look for data about today? When straight up for reals ONLY white men and commerce were afforded protections? That is what you invoke? Well. You look back and I'll look forward and we'll both muddle through.
You really miss the point.
You think the Republicans would agree to an amicable split? More likely, while they have complete control of all Federal power, they would relish refighting the Civil War. Why would they give any part of it away - especially the lucrative blue pieces that produce all of the wealth - when they can have it all? Lets not give them any of it. If ever there was a country where the sum far exceeds its parts it is the US. What was it Ben Franklin said? We had better all hang together or we will surely all hang separately."
Now we may very well have a civil war if that's what Trump really wants but lets not encourage it until it we have no choice. Until then, maximum exercise of state's rights, legal options and massive civil disobedience. And if we can't get Americans to engage in massive enough civil disobedience, what chance do you think we would have in a real civil war? So let's try these first.
I am on your side, Cynthia. You have the passion. I would just ask that you think a little more deeply about all of this.
A quote comes to mind:
"Not to be a rebel at age 20 shows lack of heart; to be a rebel at age 30 shows lack of head." Perhaps we can marry these two sentiments and find a way out?
Amendment is the way to renew the existing Constitution.
If a new constitutional convention were called, there’s no telling what it would produce under Trumpism.
Start with a Truth commission to thoroughly expose the Kochs, Thiel, Musk and other parasites.
Reinstate a 50% income tax on the 1%, end corporate tax dodges.
Only 50%?
From 1951 through 1963, the top marginal tax rate was more than 90%!
THAT's what we need now!
https://taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/historical-highest-marginal-income-tax-rates
The MAGA / MAHA crowd are really anti-tax.
Indeed. This predates Trump and it’s not going away even if he does. Some people think it’s all just a Trump cult but I’m more pessimistic.
Education is the long term solution.
education!!!
The problem isn't which party.
Both parties have been captured by passive income issues and financial capitalism.
Perhaps the Democrats will do away with some of the most blatant excesses. But they won't do anything about Citizens United.
Then We the People need to get more involved in the Democratic Party and make it represent us. The Republicans are lost but if we want change then the Democrats are the platform we need to work on.
You can not have mass misinformation orgs advocating the overthrow of the government and there should be some limits on their ability to endanger the general public. People don't like the idea of limiting freedom of speech, but we need to be nuanced on the issue and recognize that we have tried out an experiment (very few limits on speech from mass media organizations) which has badly failed. At this point it sure looks like we may have to pay the consequences and from the rubble perhaps thinking more adapted to our actual circumstances may emerge and take hold. There are risks in having the FTC or other govt bodies hold private media orgs accountable for their content of course. But putatively they respond to the will of Congress and thus the will of the people. That's the theory anyway. If we do not have sufficient trust in our government to do the right thing then we are at the mercy of other entities who have little accountablility to the public. And some of them will sell ivermectin along with autocrats to the voters.
Let me try operationalizing your proposal. Criminalize activity that would be libelous under Times v. Sullivan: intentional lies with knowledge of falsity. This would be difficult for a government to abuse. It is hard to establish a criminal state of mind when the criminal act itself is not sufficient evidence of mental state. (It is hard enough for civil plaintiffs, who face a lower standard of proof than "reasonable doubt.") For organizational liars, criminalize executives who recklessly permit or encourage such lies.
To do this, you would first have to abolish the filibuster and pack the Supreme Court. But these themselves are valuable enablers of de-Nazification.
I was thinking more in terms of the FCC taking away a license to broadcast misinformation that was dangerous to the public as being not in the public interest. There could be several remedies. regulating free speech in a digital age : hate, harm and the limits of censorship by David BROMEL
Broadcast media are almost gone. It’s all cable and streaming now. Or YouTube (crawling with science misinformation).
Politics IS the problem. Truth & Justice are the foundational blocks of our Constitution. But they are specifically excluded as ‘requirements’ in our politics. It is NOT ILLEGAL to lie. Lying is an accepted construct of our communication with others.
We all lie…every single one of us.
Our voting habits, our preferred candidates, our political choices are based on which lies we believe.
Think about it. Take some time and think about it…
I think I have to disagree with you here. I distinguish lying from deception. I'll agree with what you say insofar as deception is concerned. To use your words, deception "is an accepted construct of our communication with others." Absolutely! But lying is not accepted, at least in any matters of any importance.
Lawyers put great stress on this distinction. Lawyers constantly try to deceive the opposition, but most are very careful about lying. A reputation as a great deceiver is a reputation as a great lawyer. A reputation as a great liar can cause a lawyer to lose their license.
True, most lawyers don’t knowingly lie in court. But elsewhere, they may be prolific unabashed liars. Pam Bondi is USA Attorney General, but she regularly lies to the media when she repeats Trump’s lies knowingly.
Everyone lies, Ziggy. I include you since you are a human being.
BTW, all lies are intended to deceive. We may try to deceive without lying, but it takes a good actor to succeed.
Getting rid of the electoral college system would make it harder for big-money to buy elections and influence lawmakers.
Paul, Thank you for this terrific interview. And thank you for providing a transcript, for those of us who prefer to read information.
In the new world order in which the USA has turned its back on science, your PhD students will have to spend time in our Chinese and European universities and you will have to hope that they will come home with the knowledge you need to keep up. Topsy turvy.
They could also stay closer to home and come to Canada!
No doubt most of them will and so they should
Many already have. Snyder & companion have posts at University of Toronto.
Anyone who doubts whether this will happen should consult the latest Nature Index for 2024, which shows that 10 of the top 12 centres for scientific research in the world are already in China. The other two were Harvard University and the Max Planck Institutes in Germany.
https://www.nature.com/nature-index/research-leaders/2025/institution/all/all/global
Or Mexico maybe.
The most astonishing part of this article is the relevation that the quack medical supplements, etc., industry has so much revenue. Since it's legal for these folks to attack the real medical industry, without restrictions, as they aren't regulated by the FDA, it's only a matter of time before actual medical science is pushed aside. The US is truly doomed. As a aside, how long will it be before cigarettes make a come back, with "coffin nails" rebranded as weight loss "promoters."
I was a subject in a well-run double blind study ~10 years ago that addressed whether so-called 'medical supplements' would counteract or protect against the health effects of elevated PM2.5 in the atmosphere. We were given large amounts of vitamins and such 3x per day for several months and our respiratory systems were monitored. After the reports were submitted, the subjects were gathered to hear about the results and the only measurable effect found was that on the average the subjects gained weight by roughly the cumulative weight of the supplements. The study was financed by the supplement manufacturer.
One reason the wellness industry has thrived is that amidst all the misinformation is a kernel of truth. ConsumerLab tests supplements and keeps track of all the studies done on them. Some are helpful BUT the drug manufacturers are not interested in testing anything that is readily available and cheap. So the charlatans come in and claim that space.
BigPharma IS profit-driven, so that motive can be used against legitimate science even when it is nonsense.
Capitalism has within it the seeds of its own destruction because people don't always trust companies that are profit-driven.
The university research system rewards publishing to get tenure, and there has been an epidemic of lying and fraud in research.
All of the above have created a situation in which it is all too easy to sow distrust.
What’s PM2,5?
particles in the air smaller than 2.5 microns in diameter - they penetrate deeply into your lungs and can cause havoc
PM stands for Particulate Matter, not parts per million, which is written ppm. The number stands for the maximum size of the particles, so PM2.5 refers to airborne particles up to 2.5 micrometers (millionths of a meter). Particles this small can be inspired like a gas and so they reach the lungs and can do damage there, depending on the material of which they are made.
Thanks.
Particles per million, of whatever you’re measuring, in this instance I think air pollution that comes from diesel, etc.
PM2.5 comes from any kind of burning from BBQs to forest fires that really jack up the readings to the point you should wear an N95 mask outside and keep your windows closed.
Thx
Quack medical suppliments, etc. are kind of like Bitcoin or Q-Anon but often appeals to some on the left as well, because they sound sort of "science-like". People want the idea of a quick fix or hope. Bitcoin is like gambling or get rich quick and suppliments are like that for health, like a cure-all or snake-oil.
Then there are the science deniers who just don't want to listen or know the truth, and the GOP prey on them, as well for votes.
What these all have in common is they are often promoted by greed and those who prey on the vulnerable who simply want to believe in it.
This was also what was meant when Kennedy was called a predator by a relative assuming he knows the difference between correlation and causation. If he does know, then he is a predator. If not he has no business heading a science agency - either way a bad thing,
Good points. I’ve watched as the liberal back to earth, anti-corporate hippies in my state who supported free speech, reproductive rights and civil rights back in the 1970s start voting for right wing candidates. I thought this might explain RFK jr, but also wonder about his finances. Two divorces and poor thinking skills following his heroin addiction probably took a big bite out of his inherited money, leaving him to prostitute himself. In the past 15 years, I’ve witnessed many other formerly reasonable community leaders in my state start prostitute themselves for outside money.
Thanks, John Roberts and Citizens United/s
The MAHA crowd is not identical to MAGA, but there’s a lot of overlap.
MAHA is more the Marianne Williamson crowd. In the 90'ies West LA had a serious anti vax movement with something like only 80% vax rates in the schools. It was the Brentwood woowoo "health" parents causing the drop.
True. But many of them now support Trump,
In Canada the quack supplements industry is at least somewhat regulated by the drug surveillance authorities. At least to the point of not being physically harmful, & no explicit lies. Every year some such products are banned. But it is still very profitable. Also, they have limited ability to make campaign donations.
The combination of the for profit health insurance industry, and entire quack industries like the supplements business are going to be major drivers in the demise of the US. These two areas account for literally trillions of dollars drained from what could be productive areas of the economy. The health "insurance" industry is a parasite, producing nothing, and draining money that could otherwise have funded actual health care. The supplements industry is somewhat less destructive, until they start financing disinformation campaigns against real medicine. It will be interesting to see how many babies dying from measles, etc., it will take to snap people out of their fantasy world of "natural" cures.
I keep seeing an ad online about a nail fungus remedy. It is a footbath filled with cut lemons in water. Ten years ago, I bought a bottle of nail fungus medicine. It costs about $12 today. I have not finished it yet. Lemons are currently going for about $3 a pound. It wouldn't take long for the lemon bath to cost more than the medical remedy, and the lemon bath is much messier.
The lemon bath probably doesn’t work.
I think it would. Citric acid is a decent fungicide. Not that I plan an empirical experiment, mind you.
Me too! I was shocked when that $500,000,000,000 figure came up for the size of the phony baloney wellness industry came up. That is a lot of scratch to use for buying off politicians. But hey, when running for a house seat costs $1,500,000 and running for a Senate seat costs $15,000,000 on average, you gots to get da money where ya can!
The US has the best politicians that money can buy. It's tragic.
How defunded has the FDA been? A lot. It doesn't matter if quality control, good manufacturing practices aren't followed if no one ever does meaningful inspections anymore.
What will happen to our overseas pharmaceutical business when our regulatory process is no longer trusted in other countries?
There are well done studies that do show benefits for taking vitamins and minerals and some supplements. Most MD do recommend taking a multi vitamin/mineral pill every day and there are special blends for kids, men and women, pregnant women and seniors that have a basis in legit studies that show benefits. But there is also lots of quackery out there too. Some of it dangerous like turmeric which in high doses via pills can cause serious organ damage.
Don't forget .. 200 years ago, early death from disease was a "natural" population control. These Ludists want to return to former "happy" times.
Thank you for this helpful interview. Three people with strong personal integrity and courage. It’s so sad that scientists of all types need courage today to do the work that benefits all of us. I hope the nightmare we’re living in right now ends and this upside/down trump administration comes to an early end.
Don't forget it takes a least some courage to be a good scientist. So they have a head start.
Good point! We need many more of them, then🙂
Alas, Americans have always been fascinated by quackery, especially in Utah, considered the home of the modern supplement industry starting in the 1950s with the companies "Nature's Way" and " Nature's Sunshine". Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah supercharged Utah's supplement industry with the Dietary Supplement and Education Act of 1994. The Act stopped the FDA's efforts to put supplements under its purview. It treats dietary supplements as a category separate from both conventional foods and drugs, not requiring manufacturers to prove products are safe and effective before they are marketed. The supplement industry is estimated to be the third-largest employer in Utah, generating around $10 BILLION annually.
Astounding. Alas. Thanks for the info.
They can use that for their canal to replenish the lake with water from the Pacific.
And yet Utah is #4 in Educated States per U.S. News & Report.
If it is not ignorance what could. It be ?
MONEY! of course
A lot of "educated" people are looking for better health and spend a lot in pursuit of it. They shop at Whole Foods and other expensive health food stores that also have large supplement sections bigger than CVS. The guy who owned Whole Foods before Bezos bought it didn't offer any health insurance to employees because they got discounts so they could buy their woowoo food and supps and then not need Doctors because they would never get sick. He was a real SOB.
This conversation should be a must read for everyone who still gives a damn about living in a reality-based world.
I have recently been reading about the period from about 1900 to WWI. It was a time of extremely rapid change and technologically driven displacement. Much of the common ethos was similar to today. The common folk felt things were changing too fast and they were being left behind and the elites, being insulated by wealth, were relatively unaware, or uncaring of the inequality and widespread societal dislocations. In that period too, populists used the opportunity. I am particularly struck by the story of Karl Lueger, mayor of Vienna from 1897 to 1910 who is famous for using antisemitism as a tool for provoking the people and holding power. He is famous for declaring "I decide who is a Jew." and is purported to have said "antisemitism is the socialism of fools". He was known to be a major influence on the young Adolf Hitler. It is all so familiar.
Excellent, informative, and yes, scary as hell.
As an aside I might add that all of the things that Mann and Hotez describe for climate science and vaccine science (harassment of scientists, fake debates and symposia to try to polish those pseudoscientific turds, etc.) have a long history in the creationism/evolution domain as well. The rural/urban divide and the authoritarian tendencies of fundamentalist churches play a role there as well. We've been down this road before, sadly.
This road is circular.
yeah but it can take you down into the valley, there's the rub.
Very true. Those churches are still there.
Follow the money. It always seems to come down to that, eh? Thank you for a wonderful interview.
It’s apparently been forgotten that the first Trump administration cut back CDC capacity for monitoring and stopping disease outbreaks. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/exclusive-us-slashed-cdc-staff-inside-china-prior-to-coronavirus-outbreak-idUSKBN21C3NE/
It didn’t take very long for the mistake to come back in the form of Covid-19 and bite us in the ass. There would be some sort of tragic poetic justice if the next global pandemic emerges during Trump 2.0.
The first Trump regime shitcanned the extensive pandemic strategy playbook as a first act.
This stumbles into the same “elephant in the room” repeatedly without identifying it as the real problem.
It’s the disinformation.
Disinformation (think FOX News) has been a steady drip of poison into our psyche. You are looking at the results of this poisoning. Loss of faith in institutions and each other and truth itself.
The river running through decades of FOX et al is the message that Democrats are bad and are different and against you and want your kids to be gay and never learn about Christmas. And here we are.
My solution is that we must recognize that these organized lies are harmful, and hold the liars accountable. Dominion/Smartmatic showed that it is possible to hold FOX accountable for lies, but also showed the extraordinary resources needed to do it.
You can’t falsely shout “Fire!” In a crowded theater. The same principle applies.
yes ff we EVER get back into power the Murdock family (SP) should be charged with mass distribution of false and dangerous information. Crimes against the American people. All the hosts, all the producers etc should also face criminal charges for the same thing. (if there is not yet a law there needs to be one passed!!) I have given up American though, I believe it is lost now thus my moving to Canada next March when the. wife retires (or sooner is forced to do it!) i can go because of dual citizenship
If intentional lies cause harm, there should be accountability for that harm.
It seems arguable that I and others have been harmed and deprived of properly accountable government by deliberate lies.
They mentioned Fox. Albeit not in much depth.
I am sharing this personal story because I think it is relevant to today’s discussion.
One reason that RFK Jr., and the money making anti-science people can sell their quackery is that people do not know their families stories, or if they do, they are not able to think logically and connect them to the present.
Spanish influenza ripped through the world in 1918 forever scarring the lives of family members who survived.
When I was growing up I realized two things. One, was that the people who lived through that time did not want to remember and would not talk about it. Secondly, this epidemic never became part of literature. I found one short story that sort of addressed it. No one wanted to remember either publicly or privately.
I have a family story about Spanish influenza that I’ve had to put together piece-meal because no one talked about it.
From birth and death certificates I learned the following:
• On December 1, 1918 my father’s immigrant parents welcomed their seventh child.
• On December 8, 1918 my father’s father died from influenza.
• The following November, 1919 the baby died.
From my father, when he was very upset about the death of a sister, I learned that their mother had a breakdown and had to go away because in my father’s words, “Mommy was sick.”
The six children were taken in by a number of families in the community.
Fortunately, their mother got well and they were back together in a home that they owned.
While the children were growing up the mother had to be very resourceful getting an income and feeding the family.
Somehow, all six children graduated high school – an accomplishment back then.
But their adult lives were not what they might have been. Only one had a successful marriage.
Some families reminisce about their growing up years. They never did.
The point of my story is who in their right mind would want to go back to a pre-vaccine era and suffer all these consequences?
My grandmother lived through the 1918 flu pandemic in NYC. She never spoke a word about it. I'm sure the horror was not something she wanted to recall.
If we know the story, we should share the story.
My English grandmother married a Canadian soldier in WW 1. He died of the flu. She came out to Canada after the war and eventually married someone else.
It’s odd that it never got into literature. Like you say, everyone just wanted to forget.
The fossil fuel industry itself is grounded in applied geological science. Which is continuous with physics, chemistry, paleontology, etc. So they don’t themselves disbelieve science. Which means they have not the shred of a moral excuse. They are deliberately harming others with their disinformation tactics.
Fundamentally, it doesn’t make sense to pick and choose whether to follow the scientific method in some domains but not others.
Thank you for the good interview.
Both guests touched on the base issue - why science is being challenged - and went part way down that avenue without really nailing down why - and we know why. The fascist approach is to destroy any other authority - and science is an authority. Once it is destroyed - then all guidance comes from the fascists and there is no way to challenge the followers of the cult.
Listen to Hannah Arendt The Origins of Totalitarianism and she describes much of what is going on.